1 11:04 <@sandalle> Alrighty, shall we get this ball rolling?
   2 11:05 <@sandalle> Roll-call, please. :)
   3 11:05 <@flux_control> here
   4 11:05 <@flux_control> not sure how long though :)
   5 11:05 <@p3pilot> checking in
   6 11:05 <+wich> here
   7 11:05  * Stealth haz some chair already
   8 11:05  * abouter waves
   9 11:06 <@emrys> I'm around but not entirely
  10 11:06 <+Shamgar^> here
  11 11:06  * lace prepared
  12 11:07 <@ruskie> semi-aware
  13 11:08 <@flux_control> mpl: We're doing roll-call (letting you know since you just joined; say 'hi' if you're really here).
  14 11:08 <+mpl> ohayo
  15 11:08 <@sandalle> Thank you all for attending, what with the varying timezones. :)
  16 11:08 <@ruskie> he did only part/join ;)
  17 11:09 <+Stealth> [21:07'47] ~ mpl (~mpl@smgl.fr.eu.org) has quit [Changing host]
  18 11:09 <+Stealth> part/join is cycle :P
  19 11:09 <+Stealth> .time
  20 11:09 <+Stealth> err, no scries..
  21 11:09 <@sandalle> I would like to start off with noting that I welcome feedback from all of our developers about where the project is and where they think it should be going
  22 11:09 <@sandalle> feel free to poke me in IRC, e-mail, or a public thread on the mailing lists
  23 11:10 <@sandalle> All discussion is open to be welcome. :)
  24 11:10 <@flux_control> Does that mean we're starting with a discussion on project direction?
  25 11:10 <@sandalle> I'll be starting off with flux_control for the Cauldron team's report, and then a lucky winner will get to talk about the Grimoire
  26 11:10 <@flux_control> Or is that just a note for later?
  27 11:10 <@flux_control> Ah
  28 11:10  * flux_control shuts up :)
  29 11:11 <@sandalle> flux_control: Nope, that'll be after the reports, if we have time, since we can take that to the ML if needed for time
  30 11:11 <@flux_control> ok
  31 11:11 <@sandalle> Without further adieu, flux_control, if you would please begin. :) Let us know if you want interruptions or questions at the end.
  32 11:12 <@flux_control> Questions/etc. at the end would probably be a good idea :)
  33 11:12 <@flux_control> I'll start off with a warning that I'm on a neighbor's wifi right now, so my connection may drop suddenly now and then (sorry for this).
  34 11:13 <@flux_control> I'll start the cauldron discussion with the state of the ISOs, and then discuss where things are going.
  35 11:13 <@flux_control> 0.10.0 is mostly stable with a few bugs open against it. Some of those have been fixed in test in the repo, but haven't actually made it onto an ISO yet.
  36 11:14 <@flux_control> I haven't had time since last year to really build one yet (I stated I would be rather busy at the time of the previous cauldron election).
  37 11:15 <@flux_control> quinq has been working on a new 64-bit ISO, and sandalle has given a try to building both a 32-bit and a 64-bit (though with more concentration on the 32-bit, unless I'm mistaken).
  38 11:15 <@sandalle> flux_control: Correct. :)
  39 11:15 <@flux_control> There are some cauldron bugs that we are still working out, but to my knowledge the major blockers to getting new ISOs out is actually with grimoire bugs that are being hit during the build stage.
  40 11:16 <@flux_control> This is what I hear from quinq, and sandalle suggests that at least some of the blockers he is hitting are grimoire bugs, but possibly all of them.
  41 11:16 <+quinq> Hi, sorry I'm late. :/
  42 11:16 <@flux_control> Once we figure all this out, we should have new 0.10 ISOs ready to go.
  43 11:17 <@flux_control> Now for the future of cauldron
  44 11:17 <@sandalle> quinq: np, welcome. :) flux_control is going over his report and asked that questions be at the end. :)
  45 11:17 <@flux_control> Our current implementation works, but it's a mess.
  46 11:17 <@flux_control> I'm mostly speaking about the generation, but the installer could be better too.
  47 11:18 <@flux_control> We essentially have two main sub-components: the stuff that creates ISOs, and the installer that runs when you're actually doing an install.
  48 11:18 <@flux_control> I've been working on a completely new implementation of everything for a long time now, and the framework is finally starting to near completion.
  49 11:19 <@flux_control> However, that's just the framework.
  50 11:19 <@flux_control> The framework consists of 'cauldron' for the generation stuff, and 'enchantment' for the installer interface.
  51 11:20 <@flux_control> The installer interface is almost ready or is ready for alpha testing, but the generation side still has a long way to go.
  52 11:20 <+Stealth> ncurses?
  53 11:20 <@flux_control> The framework is a lot more robust and includes error emitting/checking functionality, and it's also a lot more configurable.
  54 11:21 <@flux_control> Currently only the shell installer is about ready for alpha testing.
  55 11:21 <+Stealth> ok
  56 11:21 <@flux_control> BearPerson began work on the menu installer, but he only scratched the surface with it so it's basically unimplemented.
  57 11:22 <@flux_control> New functionality, due to the flexibility of the new implementation, includes history of steps which can later be tied into automated installs and partial undo.
  58 11:23 <+Shamgar^> nice
  59 11:23 <@flux_control> It's partial, because if you format a partition we can't "undo" that (i.e., we can't restore data you erase).
  60 11:23 <+Stealth> :)
  61 11:24 <@flux_control> That bit is called 'potion'. The potion library has been implemented (though not tested), but the instancing has yet to be implemented in the installer.
  62 11:25 <@flux_control> There are plans for the far future to include (beyond a menu installer) a web interface installer, net installs (possibly even using the web installer), and proper i18n support.
  63 11:26 <@flux_control> Some of the i18n is there (in terms of keymaps only), but what we will need is message translations. Other than that, if we have fonts and fbterm on the ISO (which can work either with a framebuffer or plain vesa) we can display all the fonts/glyphs, and then have uim (with uim-fep) installed we can handle all the input.
  64 11:27 <@flux_control> For the generation stuff, I have planned a fully automated build much where you would "brew an ISO" in a similar manner to how we "cast a spell".
  65 11:28 <@flux_control> This will include in the further future doing cross-compilation so that a single machine could function as an ISO factory for a number of architectures.
  66 11:28 <@flux_control> I also want to implement a good deal of automated testing.
  67 11:29 <@flux_control> So far I've implemented a couple of static delinting scripts that make sure variables and error codes are defined.
  68 11:29 <@flux_control> I have yet to implement run-time tests beyond what is already in the test/stable branches of the repo.
  69 11:29 <@flux_control> There's a lot of work to be done, but it's really fun to do (not just my bias, it really is!). :)
  70 11:30 <@flux_control> We need the following volunteers (if possible):
  71 11:30 <@flux_control> people who would like to try building ISOs (you don't have to code for this). We have instructions for using the (mostly) automated stuff that built 0.10, or when the new implementation is ready you can test that.
  72 11:31 <@flux_control> people who would like to help code the new implementation: there's a TODO list both on the wiki and in the repo (the repo is always up-to-date, but I try to keep the wiki version in sync).
  73 11:32 <@flux_control> There's a good deal of documentation for building ISOs, as well as for how everything is coded (in the new implementation, which is on the master branch).
  74 11:32 <@flux_control> I'll turn over to quinq so he can report the specific issues blocking his ISO release, and then we'll field questions. :)
  75 11:33 <@flux_control> quinq: Your turn please. ;)
  76 11:33 <+quinq> Hi everybody
  77 11:33 <@sandalle> Hello quinq
  78 11:34 <+quinq> Well, the last ISO I generated is working fine, except for the /dev part.
  79 11:34 <+quinq> Devices are created on the ISO, but the mounted devfs only contains a few devices, which aren't sufficient for accessing hard drives.
  80 11:35 <@flux_control> s/devfs/dev tree/
  81 11:35 <@flux_control> Just to prevent people from confusing it with the actual devfs, which was deprecated by udev. :)
  82 11:35 <+quinq> I didn't have time to have a closer look at this, but when I find what is causing the trouble, I'll be able to release a new version up to date.
  83 11:36 <+quinq> Yes, thank you flux_control
  84 11:36 <+quinq> Besides that, everything seems ok.
  85 11:37 <@sandalle> Thank you flux_control and quinq, are we open for questions now?
  86 11:37 <@flux_control> I'm ready. quinq?
  87 11:37 <+quinq> Ok for me
  88 11:38 <@flux_control> OK
  89 11:38 <@flux_control> Questions anyone?
  90 11:38 <@sandalle> quinq: You haven't hit any more grimoire bugs with x86_64?
  91 11:38 <@sandalle> flux_control: We're to still use the test branch for building ISOs, correct?
  92 11:38 <+quinq> A lot less than before
  93 11:38 <+Shamgar^> Do you have any sort of ETA on when you think you'll be able to get to that fix?
  94 11:38 <+abouter> about the iso the device tree, mdev/udev or static?
  95 11:38 <+quinq> Just one are two
  96 11:39 <@flux_control> sandalle: The branches correspond to the ISOs. Test branch is for test ISOs, stable for stable, master for devel.
  97 11:39 <@sandalle> quinq: Are there bugs filed so we know to fix it?
  98 11:39 <+lace> one stupid question, when will we have new stable iso? :-)
  99 11:39 <+Stealth> rofl, lace
 100 11:39 <+Stealth> IIRWIIR
 101 11:39 <@flux_control> Devel ISOs could also be produced from other branches though, if they introduce things beyond bugfixes.
 102 11:39 <@sandalle> flux_control: Ahh, I thought we were using test to make the new 0.10 ISOs
 103 11:39 <@flux_control> Shamgar^: Get what fixed?
 104 11:39 <+quinq> sandalle: I will have to get back at activity log to see that
 105 11:39 <+Shamgar^> quinq's issue with the dev tree.
 106 11:40 <@sandalle> quinq: Thanks. :)
 107 11:40 <@flux_control> sandalle: We are.
 108 11:40 <+quinq> That was cast order related, not the spells itselfs
 109 11:40 <@emrys> This is a general question but it starts from cauldron; last year we talked about doing a 1.0 release when all major components hit a convergence point we thought was coming up soon.  cauldron time wasn't there necessarily to get there, do you think it might be this year?
 110 11:40 <+Shamgar^> Not asking specifics, just are you thinking days, weeks, or months?
 111 11:40 <@flux_control> sandalle: Stable, test, and devel don't correlate to numbers. :)
 112 11:40 <@flux_control> The numbering is for the generation of the scripts/ISOs.
 113 11:40 <@sandalle> flux_control: Ahh, gotcha. So test makes 0.10.1-test1, once that's working it gets merged into stable and makes 0.10.1?
 114 11:41 <@flux_control> Generation here means lifetime generation (parent, children), not as in "creation of an ISO".
 115 11:41 <@flux_control> sandalle: Yes.
 116 11:41 <+quinq> Shamgar^: depending on my free time, I'll be busy until mondey/tuesday, it could be done by next WE.
 117 11:41 <@sandalle> emrys: That's been a long time goal. I believe the ISO is close to being on-par for a 1.0, and Sorcery and Grimoire are stable enough as well
 118 11:41 <@sandalle> emrys: Always more to fix, but it works for most people
 119 11:42 <+Shamgar^> K.  I've got a server to build, I think I can put it off till then.  That'll make a good test bed.
 120 11:42 <+Shamgar^> (personal, not work)
 121 11:42 <@flux_control> emrys: I'm not yet overseas, but will be moving overseas very soon.
 122 11:42 <@flux_control> As a result, I won't really have much free time until the winter probably.
 123 11:42 <+quinq> Shamgar^: if you're in a hurry, as the ISO itself is operational, I could update it to you, you'd have to regenerate the dev tree manually though
 124 11:42 <@flux_control> In terms of the calendar year, if you consider 0.10 to be ready for 1.0, then yes, otherwise no.
 125 11:42 <+quinq> s/update/upload/
 126 11:43 <+Shamgar^> Nah, I'll wait and test when you're ready.  I'm not in such a rush I can't wait at least a week.
 127 11:43 <+quinq> One other thing I forgot to talk about.
 128 11:43 <+Shamgar^> plenty of other things to do
 129 11:43 <@sandalle> I'd like the ISO to be reproducable before we hit 1.0
 130 11:44 <+quinq> I'd like to generate UDF iso's instead of iso9660.
 131 11:44 <@sandalle> quinq: Is that readable by CD-ROMs?
 132 11:44 <+quinq> It is
 133 11:44 <@flux_control> quinq: I'll rephrase for sandalle - is it readable by OLD cdroms? :)
 134 11:44 <+quinq> It would also permit people to put it directly on a USB key
 135 11:45 <@sandalle> quinq: Why do you prefer UDF? What's the downside?
 136 11:45 <@sandalle> flux_control: Yes, thank you. :)
 137 11:45 <+quinq> I havn't explored the downsides though, that's why that is a proposition, but I don't think that would cause problems for any drives, I'll have to check that though.
 138 11:46 <@sandalle> quinq: Thanks. :)
 139 11:46 <@sandalle> Any other questions for flux_control or quinq?
 140 11:46 <+Shamgar^> I have some fairly old ones I could test it on
 141 11:46 <@flux_control> Or did we not sufficiently answer or downright miss any?
 142 11:47 <+lace> so none plans with new stable iso?
 143 11:47 <@flux_control> lace: quinq and sandalle were both working on producing new stables
 144 11:47 <@flux_control> Sorry, I should have been more clear about that when I said they were working on new ones.
 145 11:47 <@sandalle> lace: Mine has been close for a new x86 stable release, but I've had problems making it reproducable. I need to track down the issue (grimoire or cauldron) and get it fixed
 146 11:48 <@flux_control> When they get past the bugs they've hit, we should have new stable releases.
 147 11:48 <+abouter> flux_control: gimme a shout if you want a dutch message translation
 148 11:48 <@flux_control> abouter: Please do!
 149 11:49 <@sandalle> Any other questions for flux_control or quinq?
 150 11:49 <@flux_control> I'll send you an email of which files to translate. :-D
 151 11:49 <@flux_control> I'll start a wiki page listing who's working on what translation.
 152 11:49 <+lace> flux_control: you dont have old iso bin tree on your box, so you was able to only update kernel and release new iso?
 153 11:49 <@flux_control> Anyone else who would like to help, please feel free to sign up on the wiki
 154 11:49 <+abouter> flux_control: thanks
 155 11:50 <@flux_control> lace: Not currently, and I don't have time to do the builds.
 156 11:50 <@lynxlynxlynx> for translator sake, i suggest you wait until stable
 157 11:50 <@lynxlynxlynx> strings change a lot
 158 11:50 <@flux_control> The builds need to make sure all the packages update with no problems, which also requires testing.
 159 11:50 <@sandalle> lynxlynxlynx: Might be a good idea, wait until the text has minimal changes in the future
 160 11:51 <@flux_control> lynxlynxlynx: True, except for the ones that are shared by both master and test/stable.
 161 11:51 <@flux_control> We have plenty of those, so translation could start on those.
 162 11:52 <@sandalle> Any other questions for flux_control or quinq?
 163 11:52 <+abouter> just about the dev tree
 164 11:52 <+abouter> why not use something like mdev
 165 11:52 <+abouter> mini udev
 166 11:52 <@sandalle> abouter: What would be the purpose? Pros/Cons?
 167 11:53 <@ruskie> because we don't need it since we aren't limited by size
 168 11:53 <@flux_control> We will be, inside the initrd/initramfs, but after we convert to busybox (that's planned, but for later).
 169 11:53 <@flux_control> As for the ISO runtime, see ruskie's comment. :)
 170 11:53 <+abouter> sandalle: so we don't need to figure out what to create ;)
 171 11:54 <@flux_control> abouter: udev performs the same role.
 172 11:54 <+abouter> true
 173 11:55 <@sandalle> Any other questions for flux_control or quinq?
 174 11:56 <@sandalle> Alrighty, thank you flux_control and quinq for the update. :)
 175 11:56 <@flux_control> :)
 176 11:56 <@sandalle> I expect to see some new ISOs soon (and plan on helping out). :)
 177 11:56 <@flux_control> Feel free to rope some others into helping out too ;)
 178 11:56 <@flux_control> hehe
 179 11:56 <@sandalle> Next-up is lynxlynxlynx for the Sorcery update.
 180 11:56  * flux_control recedes into the shadows
 181 11:56 <@sandalle> lynxlynxlynx: If you'd please. :)
 182 11:56 <@lynxlynxlynx> nothing new with sorcery, thanks, bye
 183 11:57 <+abouter> :)
 184 11:57 <@lynxlynxlynx> i'm still bogged down, but i'll try to release 1.15 in the other half of the year
 185 11:57 <@lynxlynxlynx> it's taking too long
 186 11:57 <@sandalle> lynxlynxlynx: Are there certain tasks you'd like help in? Testing of certain bugs?
 187 11:58 <@lynxlynxlynx> there's one subdepends patch waiting for a good unit test, but most of the work is about finishing the improved ressurect support
 188 12:00 <@sandalle> lynxlynxlynx: Could you post to the ML what bug #'s you'd like help with (testing or patches)?
 189 12:01 <@lynxlynxlynx> sure, but as you know, subdepends can be hairy
 190 12:02 <@sandalle> Yes, I mess them up quite often. :)
 191 12:03 <@sandalle> Any questions for lynxlynxlynx?
 192 12:03 <@flux_control> lynxlynxlynx: What direction is sorcery going in? As in, are there new developments you're working towards?
 193 12:04 <@lynxlynxlynx> not anymore, it's release preparation/stabilisation time
 194 12:05 <@lynxlynxlynx> 1.15 is already packed with a lot of new goodies and there's new stuff on bugzilla too
 195 12:05 <@flux_control> I meant beyond 1.15
 196 12:05 <@flux_control> Just curious :)
 197 12:06 <@flux_control> Something like long-term goals
 198 12:06 <@lynxlynxlynx> nothing specific
 199 12:06 <@lynxlynxlynx> suggestions should go to bugzilla
 200 12:07 <@sandalle> Any other questions for lynxlynxlynx?
 201 12:08 <+lace> something new with lzma support in sorcery?
 202 12:08 <@lynxlynxlynx> it's in 1.15 iirc
 203 12:09 <+lace> great
 204 12:09 <@lynxlynxlynx> oh, i remember the bug, is the format fixed yet?
 205 12:09 <@lynxlynxlynx> .xz is better :)
 206 12:09 <+lace> $ gaze provides LZMA
 207 12:09 <+lace> LZMA:
 208 12:09 <+lace> lzma-utils
 209 12:10 <+lace> xz-utils
 210 12:11 <@sandalle> I believe xz-utils is replacing lzma-utils, correct? lzma utils only supports the older LZMA format, but xz-utils supports the newer
 211 12:11 <@sandalle> I recall running into an issue where xz-utils worked, but lzma-utils didn't support the compression
 212 12:12  * lace just updating scribus, scribus-1.3.6.7z, what about 7z support? :-)
 213 12:12 <+lace> just kidding
 214 12:12 <@sandalle> Any other questions for lynxlynxlynx?
 215 12:12 <@sandalle> lace: File bugs, with patches. :)
 216 12:13 <@lynxlynxlynx> 7z is also some kind of lzma, no?
 217 12:13 <+Stealth> yup
 218 12:13 <+Stealth> that's why lace has said "kidding"
 219 12:14 <+Stealth> but internal support of lzma in sorcery would be good
 220 12:14 <+Stealth> like internal support of hg :P
 221 12:14 <@sandalle> Thank you lynxlynxlynx :)
 222 12:15 <@sandalle> We will now be open for general questions/comments and then close up as we've passed our hour. :)
 223 12:16 <@lynxlynxlynx> hg is in 1.15
 224 12:16 <+Shamgar^> So no grimoire update?
 225 12:16 <+Stealth> we need a new website and tracker :P
 226 12:17 <+abouter> Stealth: no we don't, we need more people fixing and closing bugs :p
 227 12:17 <@sandalle> Stealth: Why a new tracker? We just need more people updating the wiki
 228 12:17 <+Stealth> oh oh sandalle
 229 12:17 <+Stealth> i know
 230 12:17 <+Stealth> but I'm about the design
 231 12:17 <@sandalle> Shamgar^: I'm not sure of Arwed's plans and there'll be a new Grimoire Lead in a month after the election
 232 12:17 <+Stealth> "trade mark" of source mage
 233 12:17 <+Stealth> the FACE of sourcemage
 234 12:17 <@ruskie> Stealth, so make it and we can use it
 235 12:17 <+Stealth> our website is poor for external people
 236 12:18 <+Stealth> ruskie: :)
 237 12:18 <@sandalle> Stealth: Well, it's themeable
 238 12:18 <+Stealth> yeah
 239 12:18 <@ruskie> what I'd like is to have a more or less static pront page
 240 12:18 <@ruskie> erm front
 241 12:18 <+Stealth> i loved the theme when we were on drupal
 242 12:19 <@sandalle> Stealth: Me too, but it was a pain to maintain and not many were willing to maintain it. It also had more features than we needed and was overkill.
 243 12:19 <+lace> yea, now i agree with ruskie, static front page would be better
 244 12:19 <+Stealth> it was soooo contrast and strict.. ssssexy :>
 245 12:20 <+Stealth> sandalle: yeah, engine is a trash..
 246 12:20 <+Stealth> s:is:was:
 247 12:20 <@sandalle> Maybe http://www.sourcemage.org/SourceMage could be the content of our front page, and move the current front page to /SourceMage
 248 12:20 <+Stealth> we need some cool web-designer from csszengarden who would create our new brand :P
 249 12:21 <@sandalle> I'm also planning on vetting http://www.sourcemage.org/SourceMage/Developers after the Grimoire Lead vote
 250 12:22 <+abouter> i'd suggest fixing all blocker, critical and major bugs before making it look pretty ;)
 251 12:22 <+Shamgar^> Can we define "Vetting"?
 252 12:22 <+Stealth> bleh, abouter
 253 12:22 <+Stealth> it should be done in parallel
 254 12:23 <+Stealth> like "why do we have all those bugs? still"
 255 12:23 <+Stealth> :P
 256 12:23 <+Stealth> Shamgar: why not?
 257 12:23 <@sandalle> Shamgar^: I'll be auditing it to remove inactive developers, demote any Leads that haven't voted in the prior two elections, and adding any missing developers
 258 12:23 <+Stealth> some devs are ex
 259 12:24 <@lynxlynxlynx> sandalle, admins: can someone restore ismail's account (last sm-discuss thread)?
 260 12:24 <+Shamgar^> Er, I wasn't objecting, just asking for definition.
 261 12:24 <+Stealth> ah, k
 262 12:25 <@sandalle> Any other comments/ideas/questions?
 263 12:25 <@sandalle> I know I'd like to see more bugs in Bugzilla being fixed and closed
 264 12:25 <@sandalle> Hopefully we can get more focused on that (and filing bugs for what's broken)
 265 12:25 <+Stealth> oh, YES, Eric
 266 12:25 <+Stealth> ONE MORE
 267 12:25  * Shamgar^ nods.
 268 12:25 <@sandalle> Stealth: Only one? :)
 269 12:25 <+lace> plans on next MSEG or SMAG?
 270 12:25 <+lace> http://www.sourcemage.org/Events/SMEG
 271 12:25 <+Stealth> which touch me and lace and ruskie
 272 12:25 <+Stealth> *touches
 273 12:25 <+Shamgar^> When I went to hit the quick fix bugs the other day I was rather surprised there were only ~4 in there.
 274 12:26 <+Shamgar^> is that just because they aren't being identified?
 275 12:26 <+Stealth> every moment, when Treeve forces devel branch somewhere, here and there
 276 12:26 <@sandalle> lace: That would be good to start planning now. :) We should try and do one in the U.S. as well
 277 12:26 <+abouter> sandalle: a lot of bugs can just be closed. the problem disappeared long ago when the spells were updated without updating bugzilla
 278 12:26 <@sandalle> Shamgar^: Could be, as most just file a bug and don't mark it quickfix (including me :()
 279 12:27 <@sandalle> abouter: Yes, we could use some triaging as well to clean out invalid/already fixed bugs. Do I hear a volunteer? :)
 280 12:27 <@sandalle> Stealth: This has been mentioned a few times and I'd like it to be more enforced, but that's up to the Grimoire Lead
 281 12:27 <@flux_control> Stealth: That touches on a general point that I'd like to mention about the future of Source Mage in general (as per sandalle's opening note).
 282 12:27 <@sandalle> I would love for people to use branches more
 283 12:28 <@flux_control> I think we should be striving for stability.
 284 12:28  * Stealth wants too see sandalle or lace as GL
 285 12:28 <@sandalle> Stealth: I already have a job. :)
 286 12:29 <+Stealth> :)
 287 12:29 <@sandalle> flux_control: I think the current problem might be our definition of "stable"
 288 12:29 <@flux_control> That's true
 289 12:29 <@sandalle> flux_control: e.g. stable grimoire just means the spells (mostly) work together, not the stability of the packages themselves
 290 12:29 <@sandalle> and for test the only requirement is it worked for the committer
 291 12:29 <@flux_control> I'm not referring to the stability of a component though
 292 12:29 <@flux_control> I'm referring to the stability of the project
 293 12:29 <@sandalle> Perhaps we need to put more requirements on test and encourage more branches
 294 12:30 <@flux_control> Which means integrating the components needs to result in something stable.
 295 12:30 <@flux_control> And yes, I think requiring more testing is a good idea.
 296 12:31 <@sandalle> The majority of the stability relies on the grimoire team, I believe. Sorcery is fairly stable and supports most of what we need
 297 12:31 <@sandalle> The ISO is being worked on, but that's a single-use for most people
 298 12:31 <+Shamgar^> It may be more appropriate for post-meeting, but I'd like to hear some specifics on that point.
 299 12:31 <+abouter> about integrating, any news on gcc44?
 300 12:31 <+Stealth> oh indeed
 301 12:31 <+abouter> wine needs it, for the 64bit version
 302 12:31 <+Stealth> we all want gcc44 to let people test it
 303 12:31 <+lace> yea branches, this is a example that branches don't work
 304 12:32 <+Stealth> s:people:more people:
 305 12:32 <@sandalle> Such as being able to do `cast kde4-profile` and having it work without any recasts
 306 12:32 <@sandalle> lace: They'd work if more people used them
 307 12:33 <@sandalle> abouter: I have GCC 4.4 on my laptop and am currently testing it to find what's still broken. There's a master bug tracking remaining issues.
 308 12:33 <+lace> so whereis a problem with gcc branch?
 309 12:33 <+lace> nobody will really test until gcc4 integrate with test
 310 12:34 <+Stealth> *44
 311 12:34 <@sandalle> master ticket for GCC 4.4 is http://bugs.sourcemage.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15252
 312 12:34 <@flux_control> lace: Anybody who wants to test gcc4 can do so using the branch.
 313 12:34 <@flux_control> That's sandalle's point.
 314 12:34 <@sandalle> lace: That's a separate issue from branches not working
 315 12:34 <@flux_control> The problem is not the branch itself, but that people aren't using them.
 316 12:34 <+lace> flux_control: seems nobody really want to test it
 317 12:34 <@flux_control> lace: That may be the case
 318 12:34 <@sandalle> If no one wants to test it then we won't get it. :)
 319 12:35 <@sandalle> And that means we don't need it
 320 12:35 <@flux_control> Putting it in test doesn't allow people to test it, it forces them to if they do a system update.
 321 12:35 <@sandalle> We can discuss this outside of the meeting
 322 12:35 <@sandalle> Any other questions/comments before we close?
 323 12:35  * lace is abl;e to update gcc in test immediately
 324 12:35 <@sandalle> flux_control: Exactly
 325 12:35 <@sandalle> Putting it in test just to force testing is *not* the proper method
 326 12:35 <+Shamgar^> kind of on point - we might need a better way of publishing available branches.
 327 12:35 <@flux_control> Shamgar^: That would be a good thing to have.
 328 12:35 <@sandalle> Shamgar^: Such as making them more known/easier to find?
 329 12:36 <@flux_control> And that can be automated via the wiki, especially if we switch to a git-backed wiki.
 330 12:36 <+Shamgar^> and putting some kind of 'status' on them.  Branches do have a somewhat "unstable" reputation.  If you can specify that the branch is mostly working and publish it as such maybe we could get more people who were interested to test it
 331 12:36 <@sandalle> If no other topics to discuss, I'd like to close this meeting. There's a hungry baby clamoring for me to fix something. :)
 332 12:36 <@flux_control> :)
 333 12:36 <+Stealth> :)
 334 12:36 <+abouter> :)
 335 12:36 <+lace> :-)
 336 12:36 <@sandalle> Shamgar^: We could use the .git/description file in the branches
 337 12:36  * Shamgar^ nods.
 338 12:37 <@sandalle> Shamgar^: That's a good idea, too. :)
 339 12:37 <@sandalle> I would like to thank everyone for attending and providing feedback. :)
 340 12:37 <@sandalle> I'll post the logs later today on the wiki
 341 12:37 <@sandalle> If any topics would like to be discussed further, please feel free to do so on IRC or the ML (preferable, so others may join in, but slower)
 342 12:38 <@sandalle> Thank you all. :)
 343 12:38 <@sandalle> Enjoy the weekend and I'll be on later.
 344 12:38 <+abouter> go feed your baby already :p
 345 12:38 <@flux_control> sandalle: You too!
 346 12:39 <+Stealth> sandalle: thanks goes to you
 347