Meeting_log_2007-11-11

Meeting: 2007-11-11 17:00

Note

Meeting log from #sourcemage-admin by ElisamuelResto on Sunday November 11th 2007 for meeting scheduled at 1700UTC. All times represented in the logs (but those from other users) are in the AST (GMT -0400) timezone.

Meeting Log

--- Log opened Sun Nov 11 12:59:47 2007
59 <+_kaze_> dim nov 11 16:59:47 UTC 2007
00  * BearPerson grabs his meeting chair
00  * Enqlave grabs BearPerson
00  * _kaze_ wears his dilbert suit
01 <@emrys> who all do we have
01  * abouter waves
01  * lynxlynxlynx segfaults
01  * novaburst jumps up and waves
01  * qnr je suis ici
01  * mar_s hides in his chair
01  * Enqlave coredumps
01  * flux_control sizzles
01  * sobukus wavery waves
02  * _kaze_ runs around in circles
02  * emrys throws a chair at dkowis
02  * BearPerson waves a paw
02  * p3pilot waves
03 <+Enqlave> dkowis will be late ;p
03 <@emrys> sandalle?
03 <+_kaze_> yeah, it seems dkowis was headshot by a chair some minuets ago :)
03 <+Enqlave> :)
04 <+flux_control> _kaze_: so he's stuck in the respawn queue?
04  * novaburst throws a milk soaked oreo at sandalle
04 -!- lace [n=lace@sourcemage/lace] has joined [#sourcemage-admin]
04  * flux_control jumps in front of it and cathes it with his mouth
04 <+flux_control> mmm, milk-soaked orea...
04 <@emrys> for the new people who haven't heard this before, keep the spam down during the meeting please
05 <+qnr> sandalle was up about an hour ago
05 <+ryuji> im here
06 <+ryuji> 5min late, but i made it
06 <+Enqlave> 6
06 <+Enqlave> :P
06 <@emrys> well we'll get started anyway and the other few can catch up
07 <+ryuji> roger
07 <@emrys> who wants to go first?
07 <@BearPerson> I guess I can, don't have that much important stuff to say
07 <@sandalle> emrys: yep, hear
07 <@sandalle> here
08 <@emrys> BearPerson: go for it
08 <@BearPerson> okay
08 <@BearPerson> from cauldron team, I guess the main report is that there's not much to report
09 <@BearPerson> due to trouble with the iso generation being too complicated, we're scaling back to simpler installer schemes until we can get a regular release schedule underway again
09 <@BearPerson> which brings me to an announcement of a new developer
10 <@BearPerson> I'd like to grab this opportunity to intruduce flux_control, aka flux, secretly also known as Justin Boffemmyer, to the valley as a cauldron developer
10 <@BearPerson> I yet have to sign his gpg key and set up git access, but I'll probably do that during the rest of the meeting
10 <@BearPerson> he's been helping us out so far evaluating our current stuff, and checking how well it is usable by someone who didn't write it in the first place
11 <@BearPerson> and my hopes are that he'll prove to be a valuable help in getting ISO's where they belong again, which is to say, out to release ;)
12 <@BearPerson> and that, i guess, is mostly what I have to say. As soon as we can, we'll start releasing test ISO's with a really basic "installer", and work our way back to what we're used to from there.
12 <@emrys> flux_control, do you have anything to add briefly about what specifically you've been working on?
12 <+wich> made it a little late
12  * sobukus notes that that moment in time would be a good motivation to prepare the alpha ISO, finally
13 <+flux_control> emrys: I've been getting accustomed to the current cauldron setup, and working on rolling out a test ISO. If there aren't any further "bumps" for me, I think I should have the test ISO ready this week.
15 <@emrys> sandalle, how about the grimoire?
15 <@emrys> well, first
15 <@emrys> questions for cauldron?
15 <@sandalle> flux_control: How easy has it been to create an ISO?
15 <+novaburst> Will the next cauldron version be .97?
16 <@sandalle> and will it become easier?
17 <@BearPerson> as for the iso version, we'll have to see if we call it 0.9.7 or 0.10.1 due to how much changed
17 <+flux_control> sandalle: it takes a bit to get used to the current setup, and where everything is. But I have plans to greatly simplify much of that, particularly by having some systematic documentation for everything somewhere.
17 <+ryuji> will there be a x64 iso?
17 <@sandalle> flux_control: Thank you. :)
17 <@BearPerson> I'll also need to dig through old stuff for release names that were suggested but never used
17 <+Enqlave> yep, very interested about x64
17 <+novaburst> BearPerson: thank you
18 <@BearPerson> We'll focus on i486 and pals as that's our basic install, but we'll do our best to get an x64 out there as well once we get things going again
18 <+flux_control> I don't have an x64 box to devel on personally. BearPerson ?
18 <@BearPerson> I do, and I think we can get our hands on a few others if needed
18 <+ryuji> works for me.
19  * sobukus has x64, too
19 <+flux_control> good good :-)
19  * mar_s offers his x86_64 machine, too
19 <+sobukus> Thing is, that x86_64 is becoming very major
20 <+_kaze_> I plan to invest on a x86_64 box for christmas, I could test ISO if cauldron team wants 
20 <+ryuji> morfic was the one working on a ISO for x64 last time, it's quite OK, but needs work
20 <+wich> how much has to be different for the 64 bit platform? is it just a basic matter of recompiling the packages and stuff for 64 and putting it in an iso, or does the whole setup need more changing, and have you look at what needs chaning?
20 <@BearPerson> yes, I think once we get stuff going I'll post a ML announcement about x64 development, so anyone willing to help out will have their turn then :)
21 <@emrys> anything else for cauldron?
22 <@BearPerson> as for the differences, that'll just be stuff built for 64 bits and probably changing the installer/instructions a bit (I remember stuff about grub not building, or something)
22 <+sobukus> boot loader is the main difference for arches, generally
23  * emrys wonders why we're having half the meeting specifics in #sourcemage ;-P
23 <@ruskie> because it's discussion not meeting stuff :)
23 <@emrys> moving on, anyway
23 <@emrys> sandalle you're up
24 <@sandalle> wich: it's a small list of differences. Most of the packages have been patched to work for x86_64
24 <@sandalle> for grimoire our main changes lately have been new developers, which we've been getting quite a few of (relatively) lately. :)
24 <@sandalle> I'm not sure where they find us, but I'm glad they do
24 <@sandalle> our latest is Enqlave
24 -!- Codex [i=stealth@unaffiliated/codex] has joined [#sourcemage-admin]
25 <@sandalle> who's been a user for about 4 years or more
25 < Codex> yep
25 <@sandalle> We have a few issues on my team, mostly due to my lack of free time lately (moved 900mi):
25  * Codex <- Enqlave's server a.k.a. Enqlave @ the kitchen
25 <@sandalle> * Bugs are being submitted faster than they are being fixed
25 <@sandalle> * Timelines are slipping (e.g. stable releases)
26 <@sandalle> * Developer list is not being purged according to our policy
26 <@sandalle> They are listed in order of what I think most important to least
26 <@lynxlynxlynx> bug count is pretty stable
26 <+_kaze_> sandalle: maybe these are signs that the project grows quickly recently, maybe too quickly ?
26 <@lynxlynxlynx> some 15 over the recent minimum, but that's not so bad
26 <@sandalle> lynxlynxlynx: It might just be all my mail catching up to me, then, but I've seen a lot of new bugs and not as many fixes (feeling, not objective)
27 <+ryuji> sandalle: I could provide you with help on the huntung for inactive developers, i did provide you with a tool to help in that iirc
27 <@sandalle> The developer list will be easy to prune, I just need to take the time to do it. ryuji even gave me a script to help. ;)
27 <@emrys> it's a git one liner to see who is inactive
27 <@sandalle> ryuji: yes you did. :)
27 <@lynxlynxlynx> sandalle: i always have a tab open with all the bug listing and follow the count ;)
27 <@emrys> I haven't worried about it much because there aren't that many past the year
27 <@emrys> if we move it down to 6 months like we're supposed to it will be more
27 <@sandalle> lynxlynxlynx: :)
28 <@sandalle> emrys: I thought it was 6 months for a Lead and 1 year for a dev?
28 <@lynxlynxlynx> yep
28 <@emrys> well, yes
29 <@emrys> it should be 6 months for devs as long as that's not the same 6 months for a lead (so leads get 12 months before they're out entirely)
29 <@emrys> anyway
29 <@sandalle> the list I'm not too worried about either, it's just the easiest to fix
29 <@emrys> hasn't affected votes yet
29 <@sandalle> emrys: correct
29 <@ruskie> someone needs to contact the idle ones to get their status(Unet for example will try to start contributing end of the month...)
29 <@emrys> which is the only place it matters
29 <@emrys> ruskie: talk is cheap :-)
29 <@sandalle> for the timelines, I need to delegate to my assistants in a more timely fashion
30 <@lynxlynxlynx> yeah!
30 <@sandalle> rather than last minute
30 <@ruskie> well if anyone doesn't mind I can do that bit...
30 <@lynxlynxlynx> sandalle: it is not just about delegation, they are sentient beings
30 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)]
30 <@lynxlynxlynx> i would expect some initiative from them
30 <@sandalle> lynxlynxlynx: correct, but we don't want to have several people trying to tag a branch or push a tarball. ;)
30 <@sandalle> and they've been busy as well
31 <@sandalle> so I need to plan more. I had thought I'd have more free time than I do
31 <@sandalle> which is part of the planning failure
31 <@sandalle> ruskie: the delegation or being delegated to?
31 <@ruskie> the contacting of idlers
32 <@sandalle> ruskie: If you'd be so kind, please do. :) Thanks!
32 <@ruskie> will do
32 <@sandalle> To fix the timelines I wil be looking for volunteers much sooner (as in right after the prior release is done at the latest)
32 <@emrys> it was mostly the latest one that was missed, right?
33 <@sandalle> emrys: yes, but the one before, 0.14, I did at the last minute as well. ;?
33 <@sandalle> So the last two have been a stretch
33 <@sandalle> and we missed one
33 <@sandalle> All my fault. :/
34 <@sandalle> I planned on a weekly hacking group to allocate time for SMGL, but we've had some delays in starting it
34 <@sandalle> so perhaps I'll just set aside that evening for SMGL at home. :)
34 <@sandalle> as for the bug list, I will be going through it to find outstanding bugs and point them out
35 <@sandalle> I would like our bug count to decrease, rather than increase (or remain stable as lynxlynxlynx says it is :))
35 <@sandalle> or at least have feedback on the bugs so the user knows we're aware of it
35 <@lynxlynxlynx> i can help there, i have a good overview of our bug infestation
35 <@sandalle> I've heard complaints that bugs are filed then ignored
36 <@sandalle> lynxlynxlynx: If you're already knee deep, please do
36 <+ryuji> theres no helping that :/
36 <@sandalle> lynxlynxlynx: and thanks. :)
36 <@lynxlynxlynx> for stable we need to revert/fix this hal/hal-info bug
36 <@lynxlynxlynx> some integrations remain
36 <@sandalle> ryuji: I'd at least like it to be Assigned or a comment saying "thanks, we'll look into it" so they have *some* feedback
36 <@sandalle> lynxlynxlynx: I have a queue of security fixes to integrate
36 <@lynxlynxlynx> or better said, requests for approval
36 <@lynxlynxlynx> yeah
36 <@sandalle> lynxlynxlynx: the hal/hal-info is only in test and stable-rc, correct?
37 <@lynxlynxlynx> on this topic, i'd like to become a gatekeeper to facilitate things
37 <@emrys> assigning things no one is actually working on is not wise, but telling them a human saw it isn't bad
37 <@lynxlynxlynx> sandalle: yes
37 <@sandalle> emrys: any objections for lynxlynxlynx?
37 <@emrys> no
37 <@sandalle> emrys: right, I didn't mean to Assign it willy-nilly. ;)
37 <@sandalle> lynxlynxlynx: Thanks! :) I'll add you to the List. ;)
38 <@sandalle> Any other comments/ideas for the bugs or releases?
38 <+ryuji> lure more devs into being your minions
39 <@lynxlynxlynx> it would be good to have more general folk
39 <@emrys> all things considered I'm still happy with how stable grimoire releases have been relative to other things
39 <@sandalle> ryuji: I've thought of that, but I see two problems (perhaps non-issues):
39 <@lynxlynxlynx> but i think things are going well yeah
39 <+abouter> lynxlynxlynx: more general folk with more free time
39 <@sandalle> * I don't want to overload our long-term developers with more work
39 <@sandalle> * I don't want to scare away new developers with too much work
39 <+ryuji> voluntary work, man
39 <@sandalle> so I'll need to ask nicely and check what I'm dishing out to whom
40 <@sandalle> lynxlynxlynx: more general developers? I think the MagePower articles might be helping. :)
40 <+ryuji> yeah, yeah. talk for another time :)
40 <@sandalle> ryuji: yep. :)
40 <@emrys> any more grimoire talk?
40 <@sandalle> That reminds me of one last item
40 <@lynxlynxlynx> sandalle: i meant it more in the fill-in-the-gaps sense
40 <@sandalle> section developers
40 <@sandalle> I would like to find more developers to take over a section, as some sections seem to get ignored
41 < Codex> well, yea. we have some open sections for the maintainance
41 <+wich> Would we perhaps want to do some active soliciting? over mailinglist or something?
41 <@sandalle> while general devs pick up a few here and there, the section developers primary task is to check for bugs in that section and get them fixed
41 <@lynxlynxlynx> <insert quill ad here>
41 <@sandalle> wich: yes, I will be doing that. :)
41 <@sandalle> lynxlynxlynx: I will also be mentioning that to make it easy
41 <+ryuji> sandalle: sign me up for php-pear :P
41 <@sandalle> but my main need for section devs is not updates per-se, but bug triage
42 <@sandalle> ryuji: you have the power, go for it. ;)
42 <+abouter> sandalle: e-type is still listed for windowmanagers, mind if i take on that one?
42 <@sandalle> abouter: please do
42 <@sandalle> feel free to ping me an e-mail if you'd like a section. :)
42 <@sandalle> so we don't fill up the log with requests. ;)
42 <+wich> bugs don't go to the maintainers directly anmore do they?
42 <@sandalle> wich: nope, sm-grimoire-bugs
43 <@sandalle> since about half the sections were unmaintained at one point
43 <+wich> I think that might be too much for some people
43 <@sandalle> emrys: That's all I have for grimoire
43 <+abouter> i guess the size of some sections scares people from becoming maintainer
43 <@emrys> sending them to maintainers directly is unworkable with the reality of how most of our people work
43 <@lynxlynxlynx> as a last thing, I'd like to express some awe at our diligent grimoire updaters, especially treeve, lace and p3pilot!
44 <+wich> I mean, I wouldn't mind taking care of i18n bugs, but I don't really have the time to wade through all bugreports in a list, and I always forget to search on a regular basis
44 <@sandalle> wich: that's what I'd want a section maintainer to do. ;)
44 <@sandalle> wich: you can setup a link that does the search for you
44 <@emrys> bugs get lost entirely because people wander off and I end up with thousands of spams a day to maintainer addresses
44 <@sandalle> wich: http://wiki.sourcemage.org/Stable-0.15 has an example of links for bug searches
45 <@sandalle> emrys: I get those, too. ;)
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46 <+wich> sandalle: well, problem is I'd do that search a couple of times, but after a while I end up forgetting it
46 <@emrys> wich: so write a cron job that runs it and mails you the results
46 <@sandalle> lynxlynxlynx: yeah, they've been doing a lot of updates. :)
47 <+wich> It would be nice if you could have some filter type thing in bugzilla which collects the bugs you are interested in and mails you whenever there is something in the filter, but then doesn't mail you again until after some time or after you've logged in and seen them, but I don't think bugzilla does that
47 <@ruskie> we should first consider updating bugzilla...
47 <@lynxlynxlynx> just check every so often
48 <@ruskie> latest is 3.x something
48 <+wich> Would a different bug system be better suited to our approach, are there any workable alternatives to bugzilla?
48 <@lynxlynxlynx> if you want, i can ping you when i see a japanese bug
48 <+wich> lynxlynxlynx: :)
48 <@lynxlynxlynx> ruskie: i'd wait for dkowis ;)
48 <@sandalle> qnr: :)
48 <@emrys> when I move it to the other datacenter stuff should get updated if not before
48 <@ruskie> wich, most of us like bugzilla
49 <@emrys> but that means someone is finally going to have to make time to make sure the db update stuff all goes correctly
49 <@emrys> anyway, this is going off topic from grimoire status
49 <+flux_control> emrys: when does the move to the new data-center happen?
50 <@emrys> when I have a day to spend out there building the box back
50 <@ruskie> emrys, I belive sandalle already said he's done with grim details
50 <@emrys> lynxlynxlynx?
50 <@emrys> sorcery?
51 <@lynxlynxlynx> not much news here
51 <+sobukus> Is 1.14 coming?
52 <@sandalle> lynxlynxlynx: I saw a new -rc :)
52 <@iuso> lynxlynxlynx: anything happening with the transaction commit failure bug?
52 <@lynxlynxlynx> a short progress report: devel received a few fixes, but not in the blocker category; the focus is still on the new stable and the wierd regression blocking it
52 <@iuso> what's the weird regression?
52 <@lynxlynxlynx> iuso: i'm investigating it now
52 <@iuso> lynxlynxlynx: good to know, thanks
53 <@lynxlynxlynx> that zlib trigger queue takes ages gap
53 < Codex> i noticed it
53 <@lynxlynxlynx> ... yes, test is basically the next stable, just waiting for a confirmation of the fix 
53 <@sandalle> lynxlynxlynx: You don't love that bug?
54 <@lynxlynxlynx> then i will integrate a few of the changes from devel
54 <@sandalle> I'm just glad someone else could reproduce it
54 <@lynxlynxlynx> yep
54 <@lynxlynxlynx> ... and then 1.14 gets all the attention
54 <@iuso> i wish castfs would get some attention too
55 <@lynxlynxlynx> this transaction commit failed isn't so troublesome, i rank the deletion of configs higher
55 <@ruskie> yup
55 <@lynxlynxlynx> and delve needs some basic docs and a plug and the end of cast
55 <@lynxlynxlynx> err, confmeld
55 <+sobukus> Especially, I heard something about castfs being re-developed again?
55 <@lynxlynxlynx> sobukus: proof-of-concept is what i heard
55 <@iuso> deletion of configs sure sounds like it's more serious. but the transaction commit bug regularily breaks casts for me
56 <+sobukus> I am somewhat waiting for castfs being stable for the fixing of account handling (one of my loooong-term projects)
56 <@iuso> sobukus: proof-of-concept thing that dmlb2000 plans to write in python to investigate the option
56 <@emrys> why?
56 <@lynxlynxlynx> ... and then it is time for a few tweaks and some cool stuff i can't wait to work on :)
56 <+sobukus> iuso: but the current one not being challenged yet...
57 <@iuso> sobukus: i don't thin kso
57 <+sobukus> k
58 <@iuso> current castfs has some memory handling issues, and dmlb2000 says it's due to the complexity of managing in-memory metadata
58 <@iuso> at least that's how i understood it
58 <@lynxlynxlynx> also, anmaster cleaned up half of the bashdoc pipeline and it now produces valid xhtml with css support
58 <@lynxlynxlynx> so the goal of having the apis somewhere on the site is closer
58 <+sobukus> goooood
58 <@sandalle> lynxlynxlynx: nice. :) He still doesn't want to become a dev for us, though?
59 <@emrys> we already have the bashdoc stuff on the site
59 <@lynxlynxlynx> where?
59 <@emrys> http://www.sourcemage.org/api/
59 <@lynxlynxlynx> sandalle: no
59 <@lynxlynxlynx> emrys: the second half needs fixing though
59 <@lynxlynxlynx> bashdoc is not linking well
00 <@emrys> ok
00 <@lynxlynxlynx> i'll start a repo to facilitate development
00 <@lynxlynxlynx> wink wink
00 <@emrys> I'm working on it right now
00 <@lynxlynxlynx> when i can
00 <@lynxlynxlynx> :)
01 <@lynxlynxlynx> any questions?
02  * sandalle has none
02 <+ryuji> not from me
03 <@lynxlynxlynx> any help is of course welcome
03 <@emrys> ok, we lack a tome lead, but some people have been working on stuff there...let's here from some of them, briefly
03 <@sandalle> lynxlynxlynx: on the open bugs, testing, or both?
04 <@lynxlynxlynx> all of that plus development
04 <@lynxlynxlynx> if you want a particular feature, no need to wait for 1.14 to unfreeze
05 <+eekee> I'm wondering if it might help to promote smgl a bit, to get more devs, an maybe some users that might fix a few bugs
05 <@lynxlynxlynx> eekee: it does and it did :)
05 <+eekee> ok ^^
06 <@lynxlynxlynx> so, what's up with the website
06 <@emrys> ruskie has been doing something with getting everything back on the wiki
06 <@lynxlynxlynx> eekee was involved with the drupalish theme for the wiki
06 <@emrys> eekee made a theme
06 <@emrys> which currently is the default but I haven't moved all the old users over to it yet
06 <@emrys> there were a couple issues someone should look at
07 <@lynxlynxlynx> is a wiki upgrade planned like the bugzilla?
08 <@emrys> lynxlynxlynx: yes
08 <@emrys> that one might happen sooner if I get a chance for it
08 <@emrys> ruskie, anything to say?
08 <@emrys> about the wiki work?
09 <@lynxlynxlynx> for things like categorisation it would be easier if we could sed a few pages
09 <@lynxlynxlynx> but i don't know if moinmoin would like that
09 <@emrys> it better
09 <@lynxlynxlynx> :)
09 <@emrys> I've edited moinmoin files from the shell before
10 <@emrys> so anyway, yes, we're probably close to being able to turn drupal off
10 <@lynxlynxlynx> no borked history?
10 <@lynxlynxlynx> wiki spam is also a problem
10 <@emrys> the main hole is always the forums, which hardly really get any use, but should get replaced with something that links to the sm-users list
10 <@BearPerson> I initially created the moinmoin setup from a sql dump, but I didn't worry about history back then
10 <@emrys> I'm not concerned about that happening before we move back to the wiki, it doesn't need to hold it up
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11 <+eekee> do we need the forums at all?
11 <@lynxlynxlynx> people like them
11 <+eekee> ya.. ok
11 <@iuso> i need to leave soon, i'm at my girlfriend's parents and they all need my attention too :)
11 <@lynxlynxlynx> and there is software for intertwining a forum with a ml
11 <@emrys> we may as well offer forums as a way to interact with the ml but they can go away for a while as far as I'm concerned
11 <+ryuji> lynxlynxlynx: fudforum is one
11 <+novaburst> some users complain and don't want to sign up for a mailing list to post a quick question, so the forum is good for them.
11 <@emrys> they aren't worth the security hole of running drupal
11 <@lynxlynxlynx> iuso: anything to say?
12  * eekee acknowledges novaburst's point
12 <@iuso> lynxlynxlynx: not really after the sorcery stuff has been discussed
13 <@iuso> lynxlynxlynx: though i'd like to see our package files' list updated
13 <@lynxlynxlynx> the what?
13 <@iuso> the one you can query scry with .from
13 <@iuso> the files that spells install
13 <@iuso> it'd come in handy with my recent pkgconfig patch
14 <@lynxlynxlynx> send them to scry, you can upload via the webterface
14 <@lynxlynxlynx> and if that doesn't handle a lot of input good, ask odin to fix it
15 <@lynxlynxlynx> but this is a bit off-topic
15 <@iuso> okay
15 <@lynxlynxlynx> anything else about tome?
15 <@iuso> well i'm off, see you all later ->
15 <@emrys> I think most of it is a known quantity it's just getting things done
16 <+ryuji> agreed
16 <@emrys> my turn...
16 <@emrys> obviously still not enough time though I am working through the backlog pretty well and getting closer to these things
17 <@emrys> my short list remains 1) stability 2) delegation 3) mail lists
17 <@emrys> for delegation I need to get the script done so component leads can add their own git repos
17 <@emrys> I'm working on that today
17 <@emrys> by adding ruskie's licenses repo and making the script as I go so stuff doesn't get missed
18 <@emrys> the other thing I need to do with git is move some repos around so we can add the p4 history ones back in without spamming the list
18 <@emrys> but that means closing the existing one and putting it in another location and making people clone it again...are people ok with me doing that some evening?
19 <@lynxlynxlynx> isn't that just an issue for the grimoire (p4 history)?
19 <@sandalle> emrys: the currently active grimoire.git or the old P4 history one? (recloning)
19  * lynxlynxlynx is ok, with a big fat warning included
19 <@emrys> mostly
19 <@emrys> but you wanted me to move sorcery too
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20  * sandalle can reclone
20 <@emrys> sandalle: the location of the current active grimoire.git would change
20 <@lynxlynxlynx> yes, but it has the history - can't just some paths be changed in the clone?
20 <@emrys> it needs to move from smgl/grimoire.git to smgl/grimoire/grimoire.git
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20 <@emrys> lynxlynxlynx: I'm not talking about closing the repo or starting over, just moving the directory
20 <+ryuji> emrys: if the box can take all of us recloning, i dont think it can be that bad.
20 <@emrys> if peope want to tell their clone it moved they can
21 <+ryuji> decisions need to be made to re-organize things, so it should be ok
21 <@lynxlynxlynx> emrys: i know
21 <@lynxlynxlynx> it is just easier for sorcery then
21 <@lynxlynxlynx> no need to reclone, just tweak
22 <@emrys> as long as git doesn't mind it, and I don't think it would
22 <@emrys> anyway, I'll do that some time soon hopefully
22 <+ryuji> post in the ML should suffice as a warning
22 <@emrys> the mail list stuff I mentioned is a priority for me because it's the big block keeping me from catching back up with things right now
22 <@lynxlynxlynx> i also promised dmlb2000 to write that changelog cherrypicker at one point
23 <@emrys> you people do not want to be my mailbox
23 <@lynxlynxlynx> it proved to be more difficult than expected, so it is sidetracked for now
23 <@emrys> I've gotten like a thousand mails just during this meeting
23 <@emrys> they're flagged as spam but they're to the -owner addresses, so I'm leery to just drop them
24 <@emrys> because new subscriptions to the list get blocked on their first post
24 <@emrys> and it mails that address
24 <+ryuji> doesn't sandalle also handle those?
24 <@emrys> anyway the bottom line is any time I have for smgl mail right now is spent on list BS
24 <@emrys> I hope he does heh
24 <@sandalle> I do
24 <@emrys> I want to get the lists somewhere else so they're manageable again
25 <@emrys> alternately if someone else wants to just own them for now I can stop getting them and do other stuff
25 <@emrys> afk 1 minute
25 <@sandalle> emrys: the ML bounces/etc.? I can take those, I already go through the MLs and discard the spam a few times a week
26 <@ruskie> sorry stepped out
27 <@emrys> can we go ahead as well and drop the section aliases?
27 <@ruskie> I see I got buzzed a few times
27 <@emrys> I get another few thousand a day from those
27 <@emrys> which I can just drop but I doubt we need those anymore?
27 <+ryuji> emrys: you can drop inactive section aliases
27 <@emrys> we fixed all the bugs long ago
27 <@emrys> ryuji: none of the section aliases point at maintainers anymore
27 <@emrys> or they shouldn't
27 <+ryuji> ah, didnt know that detail.
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27 <@emrys> none of them should be getting used for many months now
27 <@sandalle> emrys: I'm not sure if any of the devs still use them. Might want to ask on the ML before dropping them
27 <@lynxlynxlynx> kill 'em off then
27 <@ruskie> games@ should stay... but other than that... no issues here
28 <+ryuji> if it's less spam on somebody's inbox, by all means its ok
28 <@emrys> I guess a few of them do still point to people, maybe that was the recent we didn't delete them back when we swithed
28 <@emrys> but the goal was to switch the bugs, wait a bit, then delete them
29 <@emrys> and it's been more than a bit
29 <@emrys> I guess I can send a mail with a list and then delete them soon
29 <@emrys> and I can delete the ones that point at me now
30 <+ryuji> emrys: that'd also help sandalle
30 <+ryuji> you two get the most amount of spam i've ever seen
30 <@emrys> yeah he gets most of what I get
30 <@sandalle> and it's a *lot*
31 <@lynxlynxlynx> can't some of it be filtered?
31 <@emrys> lynxlynxlynx: the problem is it's ostensibly administrative mail
31 <@emrys> if it can't be dropped directly for some reason it has to be monitored
31 <@emrys> but it's 99.9999999% junk, if not 100%
32 <+ryuji> ruskie: you were prodded about the status of getting stuff from Drupal to the wiki, iirc
32 <@ruskie> ahhh
32 <@emrys> the stability piece I mentioned it the server move and picking up from there the mirroring stuff again
32 <+ryuji> emrys: the week or two I was holding mail for sandalle, only 2% of it was legit
32 <@ruskie> well Jucato has been helping with that...
32 <@emrys> ruskie: we'll come back to you in a bit
32 <@ruskie> k
33 <@emrys> I'm still planning to piggyback building this new server on some similar stuff I'm doing at work
33 <@emrys> which is taking a break for the LISA conference this week but will be happening the week after that
33 <@emrys> once it's done at work I can spend a weekend day doing it for us and then schedule some services downtime to move things as they're ready
33 <@emrys> I don't intend to move drupal
33 <+ryuji> emrys: what is to be done?
34 <@emrys> there's a decent chance I can make time during the move to set up fudforums though
34 <+ryuji> the main website replaced with a slimemr version?
34 <@emrys> and new MLs if we can have that discussion some time
34 <@emrys> ryuji: the wiki
34 <+ryuji> emrys: the wiki as front page all out? ok.
34 <+ryuji> gotta setup the ACL's before that
34 <@ruskie> the wiki now that it has a decent skin and will be immutable I take it
35 <@emrys> I do intend to get things like bugzilla and moinmoin updated on the move
35 <@emrys> as in I'll get the data from the backups but not the installs, hopefully
35 <@emrys> if getting the old data into new installs isn't problematic
35 <+ryuji> i sure hope not
37 <@emrys> on the ML front, do we have anyone completely wedded to the idea of using mailman?  it's not fun from an admin perspective, there are much better options for automation and integration with other stuff
37 <@ruskie> whatever you find that works...
37 <@emrys> I want to move us to one of those that mostly uses email for administration, still with web archives of course
37 <@ruskie> but provide a web interface atleast for some admin
37 <@ruskie> i.e. user settings if any
37 <@ruskie> changing emails etc...
37 <+ryuji> emrys: will our servers be hosting the new alternative, if any?
38 <@emrys> ryuji: yes
38 <@ruskie> but beyond that... whatever makes your job easier
38 <+ryuji> and yeah, I think it's not bad to thank you emrys for your efforts with our machines :)
39 <@emrys> other than those things...like I said LISA is this week but that shouldn't change much
40 <@emrys> except hopefully helping me get back into this stuff after leaving the crap job finally
40 <@sandalle> emrys: I'm most familiar with mailman, but I'm game for anything
40 <+ryuji> i have the whole day free, so i can volunteer as a moderator if needed be
40 <@emrys> sandalle: btw I'm sure I'm behind on adding new people to email addresses and irc, send me the list of those if you cant
40 <@emrys> I need to finish setting up delegation of those
41 <@emrys> s/cant/can/
41 <@emrys> questions for me?
42  * ruskie listens for the pin
42 <@lynxlynxlynx> vote
42 <+ryuji> theres a vote pending
42 <@ruskie> yup
42 <+ryuji> i heard that earlier
42 <@sandalle> emrys: I believe you got most of them as Enqlave has his and he's the latest, but I'll check the others
42 <@ruskie> vote pending for a lead developer status for novaburst 
44 <@ruskie> hmm did we have a tome lead vote in september???
44 <+ryuji> i have a few things to poke emrys about, but their priority is low, so ill wait until at least the server move
44  * ruskie can't remember
44 <+ryuji> I dont think so
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44 <+ryuji> i dont remember any votes running since lynxlynxlynx's
44 <@ruskie> well he can delegate the vote to someone else...
44 <+ryuji> ruskie: you.
44 <@ruskie> http://wiki.sourcemage.org/SourceMage/Voting_Policy <-- according to that we were supposed to have one in september
45 <@lynxlynxlynx> no component votes missed
45 <@ruskie> who got elected???
45 <@ruskie> for tome team then?
46 <@emrys> we didn't even have anyone nominated for the last one of those
46 <@emrys> there should have been a vote but I haven't heard any indication of even a potential nominee
47 <@ruskie> if nothing else it sholud have been open atleast to nominations
47 <@emrys> the beel vote is sent
47 <@ruskie> if there is anything good... else it stops there
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47  * qnr thinks memoserve should remind people as they enter the channel
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48 <@lynxlynx> bah, what did i miss?
48 <@emrys> I'll do nominations for it next week
48 <@emrys> or sooner
48 <@emrys> any other questions for me?
48 <@emrys> I suddenly have a pile of screaming children on my lap here.
49  * novaburst knows that feeling
49 <@emrys> if not, ruskie you want to talk about the wiki stuff you people were doing?
49 <@ruskie> sure thing
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49 <@ruskie> Jucato has been helping with that... most of the project related things(policy, developers etc...) have been transfered to the wiki under the SourceMage/ hierachy
50 <@ruskie> but we still need to transfer the docs and any other possible pages that are around
50 <@ruskie> also we need some perms to setup ACLs split among atleast all the lead developers
50 <@ruskie> as it is anyone can edit any page
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51 <@ruskie> I'd propose the following layout atm: admins, leads, trusted_users, untrusted_users, unauthorized
52 <+ryuji> ruskie: with a "All: read", I assume?
52 <@ruskie> untrusted_users would be able to modify only a few pages or would need to have their changes approved by a trusted
52 <@ruskie> trusted_users wolud be those that can provide a lot of help generaly(either helping remove spam or anything else)
52 <@emrys> we can have that discussion if we need to but it's more detailed than the meeting needs, any other macro business before it goes there?
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53 <@ruskie> the ACLs are a priority
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53 <@ruskie> would help if we could more easily move the docs from drupal to wiki as well
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53 <@emrys> I don't doubt it but they don't need everyone
53 <@BearPerson> hmm
53 <@BearPerson> what are the drupal docs stored as?
53 <@lynxlynxlynx> hehe
53  * lynxlynxlynx senses a hacker spark
54 <@ruskie> other than that I'd urge people to look over drupal pages and see if they can move one or two pages...
54 <@ruskie> that would help the whole effort much more easily
54 <@emrys> lacking any other general stuff, people who need to leave can and the rest can keep talking about wiki specifics
55 <+ryuji> emrys: this concludes the general meeting, now it's post-meeting talk?
55 <+abouter> afk, work
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56 <@emrys> well the wiki stuff is still relevant to the meeting but people that don't care can assume it's free to go
56 <+ryuji> rofer
56 <+ryuji> ger*
57 <+ryuji> in regards to the wiki, instead of having specific pages for the developers, why not just use our userpages from the wiki itself? examples of its use are links from the developers list for example?
57 <@sandalle> Do we have a list of pages which will be immutable and which are modifiable?
57 <@emrys> ruskie as far as I'm concerned as long as you guys are doing the work whatever acls you need are fine with me
57 <@ruskie> sandalle, not yet
58 <+abouter> back
58 <@ruskie> and I don't expect it will be a clear cut
58 <@ruskie> the way I see it is: all leads full rw access to all pages
58 <@sandalle> ryuji: do the user pages allow modification with all the "fun" text?
58 <@ruskie> trusted_users: access to all non-project pages(everything not under the SourceMage hiearchy)
58 <+ryuji> sandalle: same as a wiki page.
59 <+ryuji> sandalle: http://wiki.sourcemage.org/ElisamuelResto for example
59 <@sandalle> ryuji: k
59 <@ruskie> untrusted: only a small subset
59 <@BearPerson> hmm... it might be an interesting anti-spam approach if untrusted users were unable to create new pages
59 <@sandalle> ruskie: Can we rename /SourceMage to something else? wiki.sourcemage.org/SourceMage sems redundant to me. :) Perhaps /General? /Info?
59 <@ruskie> well I was thinking of having them as apprentices...
59 <@sandalle> ruskie: everything under /SourceMage is what's in our current wiki, correct? (other than the Drupal pages moved over)
00 <@ruskie> i.e. someone wolud have to approve their first posts or so
00 <@ruskie> sandalle, erm
00 <@lynxlynxlynx> better yet, once things are all reorganized, that namespace can be removed
00 <@ruskie> no issue there
01 <@ruskie> but for the time being i makes it easier to separate
01 <@sandalle> k
01 <@ruskie> it can be direct / stuff
01 <@ruskie> what we need atm is to have all leads setup with the ability to setup ACLs
01 <@ruskie> currently I belive only the admin can do that
02 <@ruskie> and as someone pointed out... there would be a separate hiearchy for each component
03 <@lynxlynxlynx> as long as exsisting pages don't receive spam, i don't see this as a big issue
03 <@dkowis> sorry I'm hella late
03 <@ruskie> lynxlynxlynx, that's a big "don't"
03 <@lynxlynxlynx> that would change once drupal is killed though
03 <@ruskie> better be safe than sorry
03 <@emrys> dkowis: right on time to talk about wiki acls and spam
04 <@dkowis> yep
04 <@dkowis> and I've done a bit of reading on that subject
04 <@dkowis> ACLs are a management nightmare
04 <@ruskie> why?
04 <@dkowis> because someone has to maintain them
04 <@dkowis> and we're lazy
04 <@dkowis> stand by as I pull up a link for an alternative management scheme
05 <@ruskie> no... we just lack an active tome team
05 <@ruskie> lazy beeing the natural form of existance in most cases ;)
05 <+ryuji> agree with ruskie
05 <@dkowis> and we've tried many times to generate an "active" tome team
05 <@dkowis> it hasn't happened
05 <+abouter> true
06 <@dkowis> therefore we should operate under the precedent that it's not going to happen and make it easier on the few of us that can spend the time to make things happen
06 <@ruskie> well as said leads would get acl managment... any and all leads
06 <@dkowis> still too much to do
06 <@ruskie> spread over 10 or so people
06 <+ryuji> ACL management for their component, no?
06 <+ryuji> too much?
06 <@ruskie> for the entire wiki...
06 <@dkowis> http://moinmo.in/FeatureRequests/AccountCreationPasswordAntiSpamMechanism?highlight=%28CategoryFeaturePatched%5Cb%29
06 <@dkowis> that patch
06 <@dkowis> will provide us all the anti spam we want
06 <@dkowis> in an extremely easy way to manage it
06 <@ruskie> until a human hits it
06 <@dkowis> huh?
07 <@dkowis> we're not worried about human spam, we're worried about bot spam
07 <@emrys> if the acls are kept in text we can automate the list
07 <@ruskie> no issues there
07 <+ryuji> they are in text
08 <@BearPerson> dkowis, I believe our spam is actually fairly human, just underpaid chinese
08 <@ruskie> dkowis, that patch already mentions the downside...
08 <@ruskie> However, it does not work if spammers fake the POST ending up in UserSettingsHandler.handleData() (which they do in the Wiki I am maintaining...). Spammers circumvent account creation completely somehow - probably by just sending a faked form without one of the create tags but with a save tag. ...
08 <@dkowis> in the next version fo moinmoin (1.7) there will be statistical spam
08 <+ryuji> one wikipage has the groups, and the acl's are handled in a "#acl GroupName: read,write,etc" line in each page that needs that
08 <@ruskie> ... If the other tags are not very wrong the account is created without a create tag also.
08 <+ryuji> default ACL is set in the config
08 <@ruskie> easily scriptable
09 <@dkowis> so we've now got to manage every page that's got an ACL on it
09 <@ruskie> generate the groups page from a list of the developers and possibly a second users page and add the relevant #acl stuff to the pages...
09 <@dkowis> and we add a layer of difficulty in allowing people to just document stuff
09 <@ruskie> all scripted
09 <@ruskie> no
10 <+ryuji> dkowis: defaults are set in the config itself. emrys would be the final word on what is the default
10 <@dkowis> so what's the default?
10 <@ruskie> that's the point... we have a set of subpages for $joe_random
10 <@dkowis> how is this going to solve our spam problem?
10 <@ruskie> which he can freely edit and they don't impact anything important
10 <@dkowis> how is that set of subpages defined?
10 <@dkowis> this goes against the concept of a wiki
10 <@ruskie> though a "authorise first post" might be better
11 <@dkowis> what's that?
11 <@ruskie> like the mailing lists do it
11 <@ruskie> they require a moderator to authorise the first post by any new mail to the ML
11 <@dkowis> and is this functionality built into the wiki?
11 <@ruskie> no clue...
11 <@emrys> fwiw that mailing list models sounds a lot better than it is
12 <@emrys> if spam is a real problem it's useless
12 <@emrys> because you can't find the legit people in the noise
12 <@dkowis> that functionality is not in the wiki
12 <@ruskie> dkowis, welcome to the real world... the concept of a wiki in the real world means that it will eventually lead to entropy... hence why we need to lock it down
12 <@dkowis> I don't think we need to lock it down
12 <@emrys> I tend to prefer a model that has the important stuff edited in git off the wiki and the other stuff open to any registered user
13 <@ruskie> I'd agree there emrys 
13 <@dkowis> I'm in favor of only locking down the important things
13 <@lynxlynxlynx> me too
13 <@dkowis> of course, this brings up something else
13 <+flux_control> I agree with emrys
13 <@dkowis> trac has a wiki/bugtracking/and git support
13 <@emrys> where the important things are developer lists, policy docs, main page and first tier things linked from main page (with exceptions)
13 <@dkowis> all nicely integrated
13 <@dkowis> with askimet anti-spam
13 <+ryuji> Trac... heh...
13 <@ruskie> dkowis, trac is crap
13 <+Enqlave> lol
13 <@ruskie> the bugtracer is subpar
13 <+Enqlave> again
13 <@dkowis> you're basing this assumption on?
14 <@lynxlynxlynx> it doesn't have a bugzilla plugin?
14 <@dkowis> it's no more crap than bugzilla is
14 <@ruskie> it's git support is alpha quality compared to gitweb
14 <@emrys> I don't really want one ring to rule them all
14 <+flux_control> lol emrys 
14 <@ruskie> the only thing that trac has is the wiki
14 <+flux_control> but true
14 <@ruskie> dkowis, I used trac plenty of times on various sites and still curse it each time...
14 <@dkowis> and it's got git support and better anti-spam than moinmoin
15 <@ruskie> and as emrys said we don't need a one ring to rule them all
15 <@lynxlynxlynx> ruskie: when was the last time you tried?
15 <@dkowis> that's not what he said
15 <+Enqlave> dkowis: he is completely wrong and used alpha version :P
15 <@dkowis> he said he doesn't prefer one ring to rule them all
15 <+flux_control> if it's got a better wiki system than moinmoin, is there a way to only use trac's wiki without the rest of it?
15 <@lynxlynxlynx> and it would be cool if we could manage bugs with commits
15 <@ruskie> bugscm can do that
15 <@ruskie> or scmbug
15 <@dkowis> we might be able to do that
16 <@ruskie> and it doesn't tie us to a single tool
16 <@dkowis> wtf is wrong with using a single tool if it does everything we need it to do?
16 <@emrys> it never does everything we need it to do
16 <@ruskie> lynxlynxlynx, on various sites so far
16 <@dkowis> well nothing else does either
16 <@dkowis> I like the idea of integrated bugzilla and wiki
16 <@lynxlynxlynx> when not where
16 <@ruskie> lynxlynxlynx, a week or so ago
16 <@dkowis> so bug links work nicely
16 <@emrys> do-it-all systems tend to do everthing, poorly
17 <@dkowis> #
17 <@dkowis> # BugzillaIssueTrackingPlugin Issue Tracking with Bugzilla (bug, bugzilla, issue, ticket, 0.10, javajunky, plugin)
17 <@ruskie> I'm with emrys on this one...
17 <@dkowis> they've got a plugin for bugzilla
17 <@dkowis> and a plugin for git
17 <@dkowis> and an askimet plugin, which would solve our spam problem
17 <+Enqlave> well... trac is a good for us
17 <@dkowis> #
17 <@dkowis> # GitwebPlugin Embed gitweb in Trac (0.10, 0.11, coderanger, plugin)
18 <@ruskie> last I heard it was recommended to better use gitweb if you wanted git... not that plugin
18 <+Enqlave> with its auth system, ticket-system and lots of plugins
18 <@lynxlynxlynx> gitweb is readonly
18  * dkowis notes it's embedding gitweb
18 <+Enqlave> ruskie: trac has TWO plugins for git
18 <@ruskie> ahh
18 <+Enqlave> yehh
18 <+Enqlave> :P
18 <@emrys> I can't pretend I've used trac in detail but every time I've worked with a project that uses it I've found it difficult to figure anything out, which at least means I'd want us to do an eval of it first, and I don't know how that could happen in a reasonable time frame
18 <@ruskie> lynxlynxlynx, and we need anything more from the web than read only?
18 <@lynxlynxlynx> i'm all with dkowis here, especially if he is willing to try to make it happen
18 <@dkowis> or we can wait on moinmoin to come to version 1.7 which will have antispam
19 <@lynxlynxlynx> ruskie: no, so where is the problem?
19 <@emrys> at this point though when I see projects using trac I tend to move to something else for that reason alone :-P
19 <@dkowis> I'm willing to try to set this up
19 <@dkowis> jeez
19  * Enqlave with dkowis here too :>
19 <@dkowis> could that be due to poor setup?
19 <@lynxlynxlynx> yes
19 <@ruskie> guess this might be boiling into an issue vote
19 <@emrys> yes, but for all of them?
19 <@lynxlynxlynx> the default roadmap and stuff lineup is wierd
19 <@dkowis> admins are lazy?
20 <@BearPerson> whenever I see a trac-managed project, I fail utterly at finding usable documentation
20 <@dkowis> we're different than your typical user?
20 <@emrys> it's a waste of time to have a vote over something we don't even have a sample of
20 <@ruskie> :)
20 <@dkowis> I'm shy a power supply, otherwise I'd have this up already
20 <@ruskie> what backend does trac uses?
20 <@emrys> if someone wants to take the time to set something up for peope to look at I don't have a problem with it
20 <@ruskie> for storage
20 <+Enqlave> a lots
20 <@ruskie> flat files?
20 <+flux_control> I'm in favor of just having a link to gitweb and KISS
20 <+Enqlave> hm, uhm
20 <+ryuji> I dont have a usable box to let you test either, dkowis.
20 <+Enqlave> ruskie: NO
20 <+Enqlave> ruskie: sqlite3
21 <+ryuji> I have a dedicated box in grabs, but it's slated to go down the 21st IIRC
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21 <@dkowis> it can use a database, from what I'm initally seeing
21 <@dkowis> I was more recently looking for anti-spam features
21  * ruskie bashes Enqlave's shift and caps locks keys into dust
21 <+Enqlave> orly? :)
21 <@ruskie> you yell to much
21 <@dkowis> no violence
21 <+Enqlave> dkowis: what about the server?
21 <@dkowis> ?
22 <+Enqlave> (if you plan to try trac)
22 <@dkowis> I'm shy one power supply that ran my xen box and I had a vm set up for this stuff
22 <@dkowis> but it's kind off right now
22 <@dkowis> back to the subject
22 <@ruskie> well if you can demonstrate that trac is technicaly superior to our current setup...
22 <@dkowis> I'm somewhat tentative about using ACLs as they can easily become a management nightmare
22 <@emrys> when you say it has git support you mean to browse a repository or to edit the wiki content/etc itself from git?
22 <@dkowis> emrys, read-only support
23 <@ruskie> emrys, gitweb replacement
23 <@dkowis> no, not like that
23 <@dkowis> or gitweb embedding
23 <@ruskie> yeah
23 <@dkowis> I haven't looked into it much more than it exists, I was going to fire up a vm and see what I can get it to do
23 <@emrys> it doesn't just have to be technically superior it has to be maintainable, meaning it has to be something any decent sysadmin can walk into, or it just becomes another thing tying our hands like drupal when the interested parties aren't around to work on it
23 <@dkowis> I like the integration of tickets within the wiki and such
23 <@dkowis> yes
23 <+Enqlave> yeah :)
23 <@dkowis> I haven't had the time to evaluate that
23 <@lynxlynxlynx> anmaster likes and uses trac too, maybe he can give you some advice
23 <@ruskie> dkowis, so write a plugin for moin moin to do that
24 <@dkowis> that's the whole godamn p0int!
24 <@dkowis>  I want to avoid doing that!
24 <@dkowis> I don't want to have to dedicate our resources to maintaining/developing anything other than SMGL
24 <@ruskie> we have a working system and you'd rather replace it with another system instead of adding a plugin?
24 <@dkowis> our resources are limited as is
24 <@dkowis> if our system is working, why are we talking about dorking it around, why are we dropping drupal?
24 <@dkowis> it's not working yet
24 <@ruskie> it is
25 <@ruskie> just nobody is maintaining it
25 <@ruskie> cause it's to convulted
25 <@dkowis> then everythings okay, meeting adjourned
25 <@ruskie> that's the reason
25 <@dkowis> not really, no one cares to maintain it
25 <@ruskie> if there were people maintaining it we'd be using it
25 <@dkowis> no one's really done anything with the wiki either
25 <@ruskie> so help
25 <@dkowis> I don't have the time
25 <@ruskie> transfer ONE page from drupal to the wiki
25 <@dkowis> at least until december
26 <@ruskie> that's ALL you need to do
26 <@dkowis> that doesn't help our anti-spam
26 <@ruskie> it takes roughly 5 minutes to do
26 <@dkowis> which is kinda what we're discussing right now
26 <@dkowis> this isn't about doing things, this is about how we're going to manage doing things
26 <@ruskie> how much spammage does the wiki recive?
26 <@dkowis> not much
26 <@dkowis> a few pages every couple months
26 <@dkowis> maybe
26 <@lynxlynxlynx> more
26 <@dkowis> not that I've noticed
26 <@lynxlynxlynx> every couple of days
26 <@ruskie> do we have stats?
26 <@dkowis> nope
26 <@lynxlynxlynx> see what BearPerson just reverted
27 <@ruskie> what are the pages?
27 <@dkowis> BearPerson apparently just recently deleted a shitload of spam
27 <@BearPerson> that was some 2-3 weeks' worth, I think
27 <@dkowis> they were randomly titled pages
28 <@ruskie> ok so none of the existing pages actually get hit...
28 <@BearPerson> disallowing page creations except by "trusted" users (for some definition of 'trusted') should give us some quiet time.
28 <@dkowis> nope
28 <@ruskie> yup
28 <@ruskie> that would work
28 <@ruskie> if it can be done
28 <@BearPerson> alternatively, having some sort of rule that you cannot create a page unless there's a link to it somewhere ;P
29 <@dkowis> only if we don't have to code that up ourselves
29 <@dkowis> #
29 <@dkowis> #
29 <@dkowis> (!) TextChas are currently being implemented in 1.6.
29 <@dkowis> those are an option
29 <@dkowis> they ask questions
29 <@dkowis> questions we can define
29 <@dkowis> http://moinmo.in/TextCha
30 <@dkowis> " It is likely we have a bayes classifier in moin 1.7+ (SOC 2007 Project of Marian Neagul), but not in 1.6."
30 <@dkowis> so next year they'll have statistical anti spam
30 <@dkowis> s/year/release
30 <@emrys> so anyway, I repeat what I said before, I like the option of just having the critical stuff git-edit only, and other stuff regular for registered users
30 <@emrys> last time I said that we ended up trac apparently because it has a gitweb piece but that's not at all relevant to the use of git I was talking about
30 <@dkowis> that's less nasty
31 <@dkowis> you want to edit the wiki content in git?
31 <@dkowis> how easy is that to integrate?
31 <@ruskie> can we collect some statistcs to see what the actually spam issue is vs normal edits or new page creations etc...
31 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
31 <@emrys> and frankly I consider the option of being edited offline via git or some scm necessary at this point
31 <@emrys> dkowis: unknown exactly how hard but from what research I've done, not horrible
32 <@dkowis> well that'd be easier than ACL madness
32 <@emrys> the moinmoin people consider it a boring enough question to just tell me yeah sure go rtfm for it
32 <@dkowis> we'd only have one ACL
32 <@dkowis> I tried RTFM'ing and I didnt' find anything that jumped out at me
32 <@BearPerson> ruskie, from what i've seen, spam so far is done exclusively via page creations
32 <@emrys> it's not like a section of the manual but the pieces are there
32 <@emrys> I've done direct offline editing to test some stuff and it doesn't care at all
32 <@emrys> a few wrapper scripts to massage some things would be it
32 <@ruskie> so it can be done? than maybe should be put on the todo
32 <@dkowis> well that's certainly easier than setting up trac and such
33 <@emrys> it's been on my todo
33 <@emrys> well, this is all I'm saying
33 <@ruskie> ahh lack of time
33 <@dkowis> we have a todo?
33 <@ruskie> he has a todo :)
33 <@dkowis> oh
33 <@emrys> moinmoin as the wiki can be edited with git
33 <@emrys> gitweb can point to bugzilla and vice versa, the patches exist from what I know
33 <@ruskie> I'm all for that option
33 <@ruskie> and git commits and bugzilla can be tied as well
33 <@dkowis> as long as it fits your earlier requirement of being easy to administer
34 <@emrys> this keeps us with a few pieces that all have some people able to pick them up, and a little bit of glue to make them play nice between each other
34 <@emrys> well as an admin I much prefer walking into systems like this than monolithic ones
34 <@ruskie> using scmbug
34 <@emrys> because I can learn them in pieces and they aren't black boxes
34 <@ruskie> and the recent version even support bug resolution targets and such
34 <@dkowis> works for me
34 <@emrys> honestly I think I could chase down and set most of this up across maybe 2 weeks time
35 <@emrys> and I remain hopeful I have 2 weeks time coming up sometime
35 <@dkowis> I've gotta finish school
35 <@dkowis> and get a development box back to life
35 <@dkowis> until then I'm kinda not able to do much
35 <@dkowis> other than like spell updates
35 <@dkowis> maybe
35 <@emrys> I gotta do this stuff by the end of the year so people will relected my slacker ass, right? :-)
35 <@ruskie> and I start work tomorrow... so my time will be restructured
35 <@dkowis> not that any of this hinges on me
35 <@dkowis> emrys, yep, start buyin those votes ;P
36 <+flux_control> lol
36 <@dkowis> did we even have a problem we were searching for a solution to? or were just discussing potential anti-spam measures?
36 <+Enqlave> lol
36 <@ruskie> you started with antispam :)
36 <@dkowis> I didn't
36 <@emrys> we were talking about how drupal won't be ther eon the new system
36 <@dkowis> oki
36 <@BearPerson> dkowis, I think there's two issues
36 <@emrys> so people have been putting content into the wiki
36 <@BearPerson> one is the existing wiki new-page spam
37 <@emrys> and some have this concern if wiki becomes www it will get deluged with spam
37 <@ruskie> only thing we planned to discuss was a layout of the wiki and migration of drupal to the wiki
37 <@BearPerson> the other is carrying over drupal's protection of stuff like the developer list
37 <@dkowis> "*emrys* dkowis: right on time to talk about wiki acls and spam" is what I walked into :P
37 <@ruskie> hook-line-and-sinker ;)
37 <@dkowis> protection of things that aren't editable by anyone is pretty easy
38 <@BearPerson> they should still be editable by leads
38 <@ruskie> all pages should be editable by all leads imho... or even all devs
38 <@dkowis> well I'd recently done some reading about the anti-spam capabilities of moinmoin and came across the trac stuff
38 <@dkowis> I'd prefer all pages to be easily editable by all registered users
38 <@dkowis> thats why I really liked the account creation password
38 <@ruskie> I meant non-critical stuff
38 <@dkowis> I mean all stuff
39 <@ruskie> doesn't work that way IRL sadly
39 <@dkowis> that's the way we operate
39 <@dkowis> that's the way we do everything else
39 <@dkowis> any one with any account can do anything they want to with our source
39 <@ruskie> erm no
39 <@dkowis> we don't restrict access to the linux spell
39 <@dkowis> YAH
39 <@ruskie> I can't commit to sorcery
39 <@ruskie> or to cauldron for example
39 <@ruskie> only to grimoire
39 <@dkowis> yeah, you don't have an account on those
39 <@ruskie> not everyone can commit to games
39 <@dkowis> if you did, there wouldn't be special spells you couldn't commit to
40 <@emrys> the critical stuff should be editable by leads offline via git
40 <@BearPerson> dkowis, there's magic about the developer list in that it's supposed to be the master record of who is a developer
40 <@BearPerson> so having random people able to add or remove from it would be Fairly Bad
40 <@dkowis> okay
40 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined [#sourcemage-admin]
40 -!- mode/#sourcemage-admin [+o alley_cat] by ChanServ
41 <@BearPerson> but I agree that most of the other stuff can probably stay publicly-editable-until-spammed
41 <@dkowis> I think emrys' solution is a good one
41 <+flux_control> me too
41 <@dkowis> and I'll do whatever I can to make it work better
41 <@dkowis> it's simple, easy, fits our current way of doing stuff
41 <+flux_control> I'm in favor of git-managing things because it Just Works
41 <@emrys> then get your ass to dfw this week and we can do it during lisa :-P
42 <@lynxlynxlynx> idea: chmod -w the few pages
42 <+ryuji> lol
42 <@dkowis> I can't afford it :(
42 <@dkowis> i r broek
42 <@lynxlynxlynx> people with ssh access can deal with that
42 <@BearPerson> lynxlynxlynx, would work, but revision history would be nice to have
42 <@dkowis> don't have time fof
42 <@dkowis> off
42 <@lynxlynxlynx> BearPerson: that's a general problem of offsite editing
42 <@BearPerson> git would solve it, though
43 <@dkowis> git does indeed resolve revision history
43 <@ruskie> revisions would be stored in git instead of on the wiki :)
43 <+flux_control> that would IMO be more secure as well
43 <@dkowis> well, from what I understand it, git would become the backend for the wiki
43 <+flux_control> plus easier to track
43 <@dkowis> rather than whatever internal change management it uses
43 <@dkowis> I think
43 <@BearPerson> well, at least for the restrictedish stuff
43 <+flux_control> git as a backend sounds nice
43 <@lynxlynxlynx> hmm
45 <@emrys> this is like deja vu all over again
45 <@ruskie> lol
45 <+ryuji> emrys: admit youre enjoying it
45 <@ruskie> we like going in circles
45 <@ruskie> in case nobody yet noticed it
46 <+flux_control> we had git as a backend for things before?
46 <@dkowis> nope
46 <@dkowis> we talked about doing it, but nothing happened
46 <@dkowis> we do that lots
47 <@dkowis> as long as no one brings up GPG signing
47 <@dkowis> then we start killing eachother
47 <@ruskie> lol
47 <+flux_control> haha
47 <@ruskie> we have a nice solution for that anyway...
47 <@ruskie> start killing upstream one by one until they do it :)
47 <+flux_control> lol
48  * flux_control readies his flying dagger of gpg-upstreaminess
48 <+flux_control> :-P
48 <@emrys> ok you guys keep working on the wiki content stuff and get whatever acls you need to do that for now
48 <@emrys> I'll work on this backend stuff
48 <@emrys> I'll try to work on it this week
48 <@emrys> meeting adjourned
--- Log closed Sun Nov 11 15:48:47 2007

Meeting_log_2007-11-11 (last edited 2008-09-22 23:35:11 by localhost)

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