Meeting: 2007-11-11 17:00
Note
Meeting log from #sourcemage-admin by ElisamuelResto on Sunday November 11th 2007 for meeting scheduled at 1700UTC. All times represented in the logs (but those from other users) are in the AST (GMT -0400) timezone.
Meeting Log
| 12:59 | +_kaze_ | dim nov 11 16:59:47 UTC 2007 |
| 13:00 | * | BearPerson grabs his meeting chair |
| 13:00 | * | Enqlave grabs BearPerson |
| 13:00 | * | _kaze_ wears his dilbert suit |
| 13:01 | @emrys | who all do we have |
| 13:01 | * | abouter waves |
| 13:01 | * | lynxlynxlynx segfaults |
| 13:01 | * | novaburst jumps up and waves |
| 13:01 | * | qnr je suis ici |
| 13:01 | * | mar_s hides in his chair |
| 13:01 | * | Enqlave coredumps |
| 13:01 | * | flux_control sizzles |
| 13:01 | * | sobukus wavery waves |
| 13:02 | * | _kaze_ runs around in circles |
| 13:02 | * | emrys throws a chair at dkowis |
| 13:02 | * | BearPerson waves a paw |
| 13:02 | * | p3pilot waves |
| 13:03 | +Enqlave | dkowis will be late ;p |
| 13:03 | @emrys | sandalle? |
| 13:03 | +_kaze_ | yeah, it seems dkowis was headshot by a chair some minuets ago :) |
| 13:03 | +Enqlave | :) |
| 13:04 | +flux_control | _kaze_: so he's stuck in the respawn queue? |
| 13:04 | * | novaburst throws a milk soaked oreo at sandalle |
| 13:04 | -!- | lace [n=lace@sourcemage/lace] has joined [#sourcemage-admin] |
| 13:04 | * | flux_control jumps in front of it and cathes it with his mouth |
| 13:04 | +flux_control | mmm, milk-soaked orea... |
| 13:04 | @emrys | for the new people who haven't heard this before, keep the spam down during the meeting please |
| 13:05 | +qnr | sandalle was up about an hour ago |
| 13:05 | +ryuji | im here |
| 13:06 | +ryuji | 5min late, but i made it |
| 13:06 | +Enqlave | 6 |
| 13:06 | +Enqlave | :P |
| 13:06 | @emrys | well we'll get started anyway and the other few can catch up |
| 13:07 | +ryuji | roger |
| 13:07 | @emrys | who wants to go first? |
| 13:07 | @BearPerson | I guess I can, don't have that much important stuff to say |
| 13:07 | @sandalle | emrys: yep, hear |
| 13:07 | @sandalle | here |
| 13:08 | @emrys | BearPerson: go for it |
| 13:08 | @BearPerson | okay |
| 13:08 | @BearPerson | from cauldron team, I guess the main report is that there's not much to report |
| 13:09 | @BearPerson | due to trouble with the iso generation being too complicated, we're scaling back to simpler installer schemes until we can get a regular release schedule underway again |
| 13:09 | @BearPerson | which brings me to an announcement of a new developer |
| 13:10 | @BearPerson | I'd like to grab this opportunity to intruduce flux_control, aka flux, secretly also known as Justin Boffemmyer, to the valley as a cauldron developer |
| 13:10 | @BearPerson | I yet have to sign his gpg key and set up git access, but I'll probably do that during the rest of the meeting |
| 13:10 | @BearPerson | he's been helping us out so far evaluating our current stuff, and checking how well it is usable by someone who didn't write it in the first place |
| 13:11 | @BearPerson | and my hopes are that he'll prove to be a valuable help in getting ISO's where they belong again, which is to say, out to release ;) |
| 13:12 | @BearPerson | and that, i guess, is mostly what I have to say. As soon as we can, we'll start releasing test ISO's with a really basic "installer", and work our way back to what we're used to from there. |
| 13:12 | @emrys | flux_control, do you have anything to add briefly about what specifically you've been working on? |
| 13:12 | +wich | made it a little late |
| 13:12 | * | sobukus notes that that moment in time would be a good motivation to prepare the alpha ISO, finally |
| 13:13 | +flux_control | emrys: I've been getting accustomed to the current cauldron setup, and working on rolling out a test ISO. If there aren't any further "bumps" for me, I think I should have the test ISO ready this week. |
| 13:15 | @emrys | sandalle, how about the grimoire? |
| 13:15 | @emrys | well, first |
| 13:15 | @emrys | questions for cauldron? |
| 13:15 | @sandalle | flux_control: How easy has it been to create an ISO? |
| 13:15 | +novaburst | Will the next cauldron version be .97? |
| 13:16 | @sandalle | and will it become easier? |
| 13:17 | @BearPerson | as for the iso version, we'll have to see if we call it 0.9.7 or 0.10.1 due to how much changed |
| 13:17 | +flux_control | sandalle: it takes a bit to get used to the current setup, and where everything is. But I have plans to greatly simplify much of that, particularly by having some systematic documentation for everything somewhere. |
| 13:17 | +ryuji | will there be a x64 iso? |
| 13:17 | @sandalle | flux_control: Thank you. :) |
| 13:17 | @BearPerson | I'll also need to dig through old stuff for release names that were suggested but never used |
| 13:17 | +Enqlave | yep, very interested about x64 |
| 13:17 | +novaburst | BearPerson: thank you |
| 13:18 | @BearPerson | We'll focus on i486 and pals as that's our basic install, but we'll do our best to get an x64 out there as well once we get things going again |
| 13:18 | +flux_control | I don't have an x64 box to devel on personally. BearPerson ? |
| 13:18 | @BearPerson | I do, and I think we can get our hands on a few others if needed |
| 13:18 | +ryuji | works for me. |
| 13:19 | * | sobukus has x64, too |
| 13:19 | +flux_control | good good :-) |
| 13:19 | * | mar_s offers his x86_64 machine, too |
| 13:19 | +sobukus | Thing is, that x86_64 is becoming very major |
| 13:20 | +_kaze_ | I plan to invest on a x86_64 box for christmas, I could test ISO if cauldron team wants |
| 13:20 | +ryuji | morfic was the one working on a ISO for x64 last time, it's quite OK, but needs work |
| 13:20 | +wich | how much has to be different for the 64 bit platform? is it just a basic matter of recompiling the packages and stuff for 64 and putting it in an iso, or does the whole setup need more changing, and have you look at what needs chaning? |
| 13:20 | @BearPerson | yes, I think once we get stuff going I'll post a ML announcement about x64 development, so anyone willing to help out will have their turn then :) |
| 13:21 | @emrys | anything else for cauldron? |
| 13:22 | @BearPerson | as for the differences, that'll just be stuff built for 64 bits and probably changing the installer/instructions a bit (I remember stuff about grub not building, or something) |
| 13:22 | +sobukus | boot loader is the main difference for arches, generally |
| 13:23 | * | emrys wonders why we're having half the meeting specifics in #sourcemage ;-P |
| 13:23 | @ruskie | because it's discussion not meeting stuff :) |
| 13:23 | @emrys | moving on, anyway |
| 13:23 | @emrys | sandalle you're up |
| 13:24 | @sandalle | wich: it's a small list of differences. Most of the packages have been patched to work for x86_64 |
| 13:24 | @sandalle | for grimoire our main changes lately have been new developers, which we've been getting quite a few of (relatively) lately. :) |
| 13:24 | @sandalle | I'm not sure where they find us, but I'm glad they do |
| 13:24 | @sandalle | our latest is Enqlave |
| 13:24 | -!- | Codex [i=stealth@unaffiliated/codex] has joined [#sourcemage-admin] |
| 13:25 | @sandalle | who's been a user for about 4 years or more |
| 13:25 | Codex | yep |
| 13:25 | @sandalle | We have a few issues on my team, mostly due to my lack of free time lately (moved 900mi): |
| 13:25 | * | Codex <- Enqlave's server a.k.a. Enqlave @ the kitchen |
| 13:25 | @sandalle | * Bugs are being submitted faster than they are being fixed |
| 13:25 | @sandalle | * Timelines are slipping (e.g. stable releases) |
| 13:26 | @sandalle | * Developer list is not being purged according to our policy |
| 13:26 | @sandalle | They are listed in order of what I think most important to least |
| 13:26 | @lynxlynxlynx | bug count is pretty stable |
| 13:26 | +_kaze_ | sandalle: maybe these are signs that the project grows quickly recently, maybe too quickly ? |
| 13:26 | @lynxlynxlynx | some 15 over the recent minimum, but that's not so bad |
| 13:26 | @sandalle | lynxlynxlynx: It might just be all my mail catching up to me, then, but I've seen a lot of new bugs and not as many fixes (feeling, not objective) |
| 13:27 | +ryuji | sandalle: I could provide you with help on the huntung for inactive developers, i did provide you with a tool to help in that iirc |
| 13:27 | @sandalle | The developer list will be easy to prune, I just need to take the time to do it. ryuji even gave me a script to help. ;) |
| 13:27 | @emrys | it's a git one liner to see who is inactive |
| 13:27 | @sandalle | ryuji: yes you did. :) |
| 13:27 | @lynxlynxlynx | sandalle: i always have a tab open with all the bug listing and follow the count ;) |
| 13:27 | @emrys | I haven't worried about it much because there aren't that many past the year |
| 13:27 | @emrys | if we move it down to 6 months like we're supposed to it will be more |
| 13:27 | @sandalle | lynxlynxlynx: :) |
| 13:28 | @sandalle | emrys: I thought it was 6 months for a Lead and 1 year for a dev? |
| 13:28 | @lynxlynxlynx | yep |
| 13:28 | @emrys | well, yes |
| 13:29 | @emrys | it should be 6 months for devs as long as that's not the same 6 months for a lead (so leads get 12 months before they're out entirely) |
| 13:29 | @emrys | anyway |
| 13:29 | @sandalle | the list I'm not too worried about either, it's just the easiest to fix |
| 13:29 | @emrys | hasn't affected votes yet |
| 13:29 | @sandalle | emrys: correct |
| 13:29 | @ruskie | someone needs to contact the idle ones to get their status(Unet for example will try to start contributing end of the month...) |
| 13:29 | @emrys | which is the only place it matters |
| 13:29 | @emrys | ruskie: talk is cheap :-) |
| 13:29 | @sandalle | for the timelines, I need to delegate to my assistants in a more timely fashion |
| 13:30 | @lynxlynxlynx | yeah! |
| 13:30 | @sandalle | rather than last minute |
| 13:30 | @ruskie | well if anyone doesn't mind I can do that bit... |
| 13:30 | @lynxlynxlynx | sandalle: it is not just about delegation, they are sentient beings |
| 13:30 | -!- | alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] |
| 13:30 | @lynxlynxlynx | i would expect some initiative from them |
| 13:30 | @sandalle | lynxlynxlynx: correct, but we don't want to have several people trying to tag a branch or push a tarball. ;) |
| 13:30 | @sandalle | and they've been busy as well |
| 13:31 | @sandalle | so I need to plan more. I had thought I'd have more free time than I do |
| 13:31 | @sandalle | which is part of the planning failure |
| 13:31 | @sandalle | ruskie: the delegation or being delegated to? |
| 13:31 | @ruskie | the contacting of idlers |
| 13:32 | @sandalle | ruskie: If you'd be so kind, please do. :) Thanks! |
| 13:32 | @ruskie | will do |
| 13:32 | @sandalle | To fix the timelines I wil be looking for volunteers much sooner (as in right after the prior release is done at the latest) |
| 13:32 | @emrys | it was mostly the latest one that was missed, right? |
| 13:33 | @sandalle | emrys: yes, but the one before, 0.14, I did at the last minute as well. ;? |
| 13:33 | @sandalle | So the last two have been a stretch |
| 13:33 | @sandalle | and we missed one |
| 13:33 | @sandalle | All my fault. :/ |
| 13:34 | @sandalle | I planned on a weekly hacking group to allocate time for SMGL, but we've had some delays in starting it |
| 13:34 | @sandalle | so perhaps I'll just set aside that evening for SMGL at home. :) |
| 13:34 | @sandalle | as for the bug list, I will be going through it to find outstanding bugs and point them out |
| 13:35 | @sandalle | I would like our bug count to decrease, rather than increase (or remain stable as lynxlynxlynx says it is :)) |
| 13:35 | @sandalle | or at least have feedback on the bugs so the user knows we're aware of it |
| 13:35 | @lynxlynxlynx | i can help there, i have a good overview of our bug infestation |
| 13:35 | @sandalle | I've heard complaints that bugs are filed then ignored |
| 13:36 | @sandalle | lynxlynxlynx: If you're already knee deep, please do |
| 13:36 | +ryuji | theres no helping that :/ |
| 13:36 | @sandalle | lynxlynxlynx: and thanks. :) |
| 13:36 | @lynxlynxlynx | for stable we need to revert/fix this hal/hal-info bug |
| 13:36 | @lynxlynxlynx | some integrations remain |
| 13:36 | @sandalle | ryuji: I'd at least like it to be Assigned or a comment saying "thanks, we'll look into it" so they have *some* feedback |
| 13:36 | @sandalle | lynxlynxlynx: I have a queue of security fixes to integrate |
| 13:36 | @lynxlynxlynx | or better said, requests for approval |
| 13:36 | @lynxlynxlynx | yeah |
| 13:36 | @sandalle | lynxlynxlynx: the hal/hal-info is only in test and stable-rc, correct? |
| 13:37 | @lynxlynxlynx | on this topic, i'd like to become a gatekeeper to facilitate things |
| 13:37 | @emrys | assigning things no one is actually working on is not wise, but telling them a human saw it isn't bad |
| 13:37 | @lynxlynxlynx | sandalle: yes |
| 13:37 | @sandalle | emrys: any objections for lynxlynxlynx? |
| 13:37 | @emrys | no |
| 13:37 | @sandalle | emrys: right, I didn't mean to Assign it willy-nilly. ;) |
| 13:37 | @sandalle | lynxlynxlynx: Thanks! :) I'll add you to the List. ;) |
| 13:38 | @sandalle | Any other comments/ideas for the bugs or releases? |
| 13:38 | +ryuji | lure more devs into being your minions |
| 13:39 | @lynxlynxlynx | it would be good to have more general folk |
| 13:39 | @emrys | all things considered I'm still happy with how stable grimoire releases have been relative to other things |
| 13:39 | @sandalle | ryuji: I've thought of that, but I see two problems (perhaps non-issues): |
| 13:39 | @lynxlynxlynx | but i think things are going well yeah |
| 13:39 | +abouter | lynxlynxlynx: more general folk with more free time |
| 13:39 | @sandalle | * I don't want to overload our long-term developers with more work |
| 13:39 | @sandalle | * I don't want to scare away new developers with too much work |
| 13:39 | +ryuji | voluntary work, man |
| 13:39 | @sandalle | so I'll need to ask nicely and check what I'm dishing out to whom |
| 13:40 | @sandalle | lynxlynxlynx: more general developers? I think the MagePower articles might be helping. :) |
| 13:40 | +ryuji | yeah, yeah. talk for another time :) |
| 13:40 | @sandalle | ryuji: yep. :) |
| 13:40 | @emrys | any more grimoire talk? |
| 13:40 | @sandalle | That reminds me of one last item |
| 13:40 | @lynxlynxlynx | sandalle: i meant it more in the fill-in-the-gaps sense |
| 13:40 | @sandalle | section developers |
| 13:40 | @sandalle | I would like to find more developers to take over a section, as some sections seem to get ignored |
| 13:41 | Codex | well, yea. we have some open sections for the maintainance |
| 13:41 | +wich | Would we perhaps want to do some active soliciting? over mailinglist or something? |
| 13:41 | @sandalle | while general devs pick up a few here and there, the section developers primary task is to check for bugs in that section and get them fixed |
| 13:41 | @lynxlynxlynx | <insert quill ad here> |
| 13:41 | @sandalle | wich: yes, I will be doing that. :) |
| 13:41 | @sandalle | lynxlynxlynx: I will also be mentioning that to make it easy |
| 13:41 | +ryuji | sandalle: sign me up for php-pear :P |
| 13:41 | @sandalle | but my main need for section devs is not updates per-se, but bug triage |
| 13:42 | @sandalle | ryuji: you have the power, go for it. ;) |
| 13:42 | +abouter | sandalle: e-type is still listed for windowmanagers, mind if i take on that one? |
| 13:42 | @sandalle | abouter: please do |
| 13:42 | @sandalle | feel free to ping me an e-mail if you'd like a section. :) |
| 13:42 | @sandalle | so we don't fill up the log with requests. ;) |
| 13:42 | +wich | bugs don't go to the maintainers directly anmore do they? |
| 13:42 | @sandalle | wich: nope, sm-grimoire-bugs |
| 13:43 | @sandalle | since about half the sections were unmaintained at one point |
| 13:43 | +wich | I think that might be too much for some people |
| 13:43 | @sandalle | emrys: That's all I have for grimoire |
| 13:43 | +abouter | i guess the size of some sections scares people from becoming maintainer |
| 13:43 | @emrys | sending them to maintainers directly is unworkable with the reality of how most of our people work |
| 13:43 | @lynxlynxlynx | as a last thing, I'd like to express some awe at our diligent grimoire updaters, especially treeve, lace and p3pilot! |
| 13:44 | +wich | I mean, I wouldn't mind taking care of i18n bugs, but I don't really have the time to wade through all bugreports in a list, and I always forget to search on a regular basis |
| 13:44 | @sandalle | wich: that's what I'd want a section maintainer to do. ;) |
| 13:44 | @sandalle | wich: you can setup a link that does the search for you |
| 13:44 | @emrys | bugs get lost entirely because people wander off and I end up with thousands of spams a day to maintainer addresses |
| 13:44 | @sandalle | wich: http://wiki.sourcemage.org/Stable-0.15 has an example of links for bug searches |
| 13:45 | @sandalle | emrys: I get those, too. ;) |
| 13:45 | -!- | alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined [#sourcemage-admin] |
| 13:45 | -!- | mode/#sourcemage-admin [+o alley_cat] by ChanServ |
| 13:46 | +wich | sandalle: well, problem is I'd do that search a couple of times, but after a while I end up forgetting it |
| 13:46 | @emrys | wich: so write a cron job that runs it and mails you the results |
| 13:46 | @sandalle | lynxlynxlynx: yeah, they've been doing a lot of updates. :) |
| 13:47 | +wich | It would be nice if you could have some filter type thing in bugzilla which collects the bugs you are interested in and mails you whenever there is something in the filter, but then doesn't mail you again until after some time or after you've logged in and seen them, but I don't think bugzilla does that |
| 13:47 | @ruskie | we should first consider updating bugzilla... |
| 13:47 | @lynxlynxlynx | just check every so often |
| 13:48 | @ruskie | latest is 3.x something |
| 13:48 | +wich | Would a different bug system be better suited to our approach, are there any workable alternatives to bugzilla? |
| 13:48 | @lynxlynxlynx | if you want, i can ping you when i see a japanese bug |
| 13:48 | +wich | lynxlynxlynx: :) |
| 13:48 | @lynxlynxlynx | ruskie: i'd wait for dkowis ;) |
| 13:48 | @sandalle | qnr: :) |
| 13:48 | @emrys | when I move it to the other datacenter stuff should get updated if not before |
| 13:48 | @ruskie | wich, most of us like bugzilla |
| 13:49 | @emrys | but that means someone is finally going to have to make time to make sure the db update stuff all goes correctly |
| 13:49 | @emrys | anyway, this is going off topic from grimoire status |
| 13:49 | +flux_control | emrys: when does the move to the new data-center happen? |
| 13:50 | @emrys | when I have a day to spend out there building the box back |
| 13:50 | @ruskie | emrys, I belive sandalle already said he's done with grim details |
| 13:50 | @emrys | lynxlynxlynx? |
| 13:50 | @emrys | sorcery? |
| 13:51 | @lynxlynxlynx | not much news here |
| 13:51 | +sobukus | Is 1.14 coming? |
| 13:52 | @sandalle | lynxlynxlynx: I saw a new -rc :) |
| 13:52 | @iuso | lynxlynxlynx: anything happening with the transaction commit failure bug? |
| 13:52 | @lynxlynxlynx | a short progress report: devel received a few fixes, but not in the blocker category; the focus is still on the new stable and the wierd regression blocking it |
| 13:52 | @iuso | what's the weird regression? |
| 13:52 | @lynxlynxlynx | iuso: i'm investigating it now |
| 13:52 | @iuso | lynxlynxlynx: good to know, thanks |
| 13:53 | @lynxlynxlynx | that zlib trigger queue takes ages gap |
| 13:53 | Codex | i noticed it |
| 13:53 | @lynxlynxlynx | ... yes, test is basically the next stable, just waiting for a confirmation of the fix |
| 13:53 | @sandalle | lynxlynxlynx: You don't love that bug? |
| 13:54 | @lynxlynxlynx | then i will integrate a few of the changes from devel |
| 13:54 | @sandalle | I'm just glad someone else could reproduce it |
| 13:54 | @lynxlynxlynx | yep |
| 13:54 | @lynxlynxlynx | ... and then 1.14 gets all the attention |
| 13:54 | @iuso | i wish castfs would get some attention too |
| 13:55 | @lynxlynxlynx | this transaction commit failed isn't so troublesome, i rank the deletion of configs higher |
| 13:55 | @ruskie | yup |
| 13:55 | @lynxlynxlynx | and delve needs some basic docs and a plug and the end of cast |
| 13:55 | @lynxlynxlynx | err, confmeld |
| 13:55 | +sobukus | Especially, I heard something about castfs being re-developed again? |
| 13:55 | @lynxlynxlynx | sobukus: proof-of-concept is what i heard |
| 13:55 | @iuso | deletion of configs sure sounds like it's more serious. but the transaction commit bug regularily breaks casts for me |
| 13:56 | +sobukus | I am somewhat waiting for castfs being stable for the fixing of account handling (one of my loooong-term projects) |
| 13:56 | @iuso | sobukus: proof-of-concept thing that dmlb2000 plans to write in python to investigate the option |
| 13:56 | @emrys | why? |
| 13:56 | @lynxlynxlynx | ... and then it is time for a few tweaks and some cool stuff i can't wait to work on :) |
| 13:56 | +sobukus | iuso: but the current one not being challenged yet... |
| 13:57 | @iuso | sobukus: i don't thin kso |
| 13:57 | +sobukus | k |
| 13:58 | @iuso | current castfs has some memory handling issues, and dmlb2000 says it's due to the complexity of managing in-memory metadata |
| 13:58 | @iuso | at least that's how i understood it |
| 13:58 | @lynxlynxlynx | also, anmaster cleaned up half of the bashdoc pipeline and it now produces valid xhtml with css support |
| 13:58 | @lynxlynxlynx | so the goal of having the apis somewhere on the site is closer |
| 13:58 | +sobukus | goooood |
| 13:58 | @sandalle | lynxlynxlynx: nice. :) He still doesn't want to become a dev for us, though? |
| 13:59 | @emrys | we already have the bashdoc stuff on the site |
| 13:59 | @lynxlynxlynx | where? |
| 13:59 | @emrys | http://www.sourcemage.org/api/ |
| 13:59 | @lynxlynxlynx | sandalle: no |
| 13:59 | @lynxlynxlynx | emrys: the second half needs fixing though |
| 13:59 | @lynxlynxlynx | bashdoc is not linking well |
| 14:00 | @emrys | ok |
| 14:00 | @lynxlynxlynx | i'll start a repo to facilitate development |
| 14:00 | @lynxlynxlynx | wink wink |
| 14:00 | @emrys | I'm working on it right now |
| 14:00 | @lynxlynxlynx | when i can |
| 14:00 | @lynxlynxlynx | :) |
| 14:01 | @lynxlynxlynx | any questions? |
| 14:02 | * | sandalle has none |
| 14:02 | +ryuji | not from me |
| 14:03 | @lynxlynxlynx | any help is of course welcome |
| 14:03 | @emrys | ok, we lack a tome lead, but some people have been working on stuff there...let's here from some of them, briefly |
| 14:03 | @sandalle | lynxlynxlynx: on the open bugs, testing, or both? |
| 14:04 | @lynxlynxlynx | all of that plus development |
| 14:04 | @lynxlynxlynx | if you want a particular feature, no need to wait for 1.14 to unfreeze |
| 14:05 | +eekee | I'm wondering if it might help to promote smgl a bit, to get more devs, an maybe some users that might fix a few bugs |
| 14:05 | @lynxlynxlynx | eekee: it does and it did :) |
| 14:05 | +eekee | ok ^^ |
| 14:06 | @lynxlynxlynx | so, what's up with the website |
| 14:06 | @emrys | ruskie has been doing something with getting everything back on the wiki |
| 14:06 | @lynxlynxlynx | eekee was involved with the drupalish theme for the wiki |
| 14:06 | @emrys | eekee made a theme |
| 14:06 | @emrys | which currently is the default but I haven't moved all the old users over to it yet |
| 14:06 | @emrys | there were a couple issues someone should look at |
| 14:07 | @lynxlynxlynx | is a wiki upgrade planned like the bugzilla? |
| 14:08 | @emrys | lynxlynxlynx: yes |
| 14:08 | @emrys | that one might happen sooner if I get a chance for it |
| 14:08 | @emrys | ruskie, anything to say? |
| 14:08 | @emrys | about the wiki work? |
| 14:09 | @lynxlynxlynx | for things like categorisation it would be easier if we could sed a few pages |
| 14:09 | @lynxlynxlynx | but i don't know if moinmoin would like that |
| 14:09 | @emrys | it better |
| 14:09 | @lynxlynxlynx | :) |
| 14:09 | @emrys | I've edited moinmoin files from the shell before |
| 14:10 | @emrys | so anyway, yes, we're probably close to being able to turn drupal off |
| 14:10 | @lynxlynxlynx | no borked history? |
| 14:10 | @lynxlynxlynx | wiki spam is also a problem |
| 14:10 | @emrys | the main hole is always the forums, which hardly really get any use, but should get replaced with something that links to the sm-users list |
| 14:10 | @BearPerson | I initially created the moinmoin setup from a sql dump, but I didn't worry about history back then |
| 14:10 | @emrys | I'm not concerned about that happening before we move back to the wiki, it doesn't need to hold it up |
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| 14:11 | +eekee | do we need the forums at all? |
| 14:11 | @lynxlynxlynx | people like them |
| 14:11 | +eekee | ya.. ok |
| 14:11 | @iuso | i need to leave soon, i'm at my girlfriend's parents and they all need my attention too :) |
| 14:11 | @lynxlynxlynx | and there is software for intertwining a forum with a ml |
| 14:11 | @emrys | we may as well offer forums as a way to interact with the ml but they can go away for a while as far as I'm concerned |
| 14:11 | +ryuji | lynxlynxlynx: fudforum is one |
| 14:11 | +novaburst | some users complain and don't want to sign up for a mailing list to post a quick question, so the forum is good for them. |
| 14:11 | @emrys | they aren't worth the security hole of running drupal |
| 14:11 | @lynxlynxlynx | iuso: anything to say? |
| 14:12 | * | eekee acknowledges novaburst's point |
| 14:12 | @iuso | lynxlynxlynx: not really after the sorcery stuff has been discussed |
| 14:13 | @iuso | lynxlynxlynx: though i'd like to see our package files' list updated |
| 14:13 | @lynxlynxlynx | the what? |
| 14:13 | @iuso | the one you can query scry with .from |
| 14:13 | @iuso | the files that spells install |
| 14:13 | @iuso | it'd come in handy with my recent pkgconfig patch |
| 14:14 | @lynxlynxlynx | send them to scry, you can upload via the webterface |
| 14:14 | @lynxlynxlynx | and if that doesn't handle a lot of input good, ask odin to fix it |
| 14:15 | @lynxlynxlynx | but this is a bit off-topic |
| 14:15 | @iuso | okay |
| 14:15 | @lynxlynxlynx | anything else about tome? |
| 14:15 | @iuso | well i'm off, see you all later -> |
| 14:15 | @emrys | I think most of it is a known quantity it's just getting things done |
| 14:16 | +ryuji | agreed |
| 14:16 | @emrys | my turn... |
| 14:16 | @emrys | obviously still not enough time though I am working through the backlog pretty well and getting closer to these things |
| 14:17 | @emrys | my short list remains 1) stability 2) delegation 3) mail lists |
| 14:17 | @emrys | for delegation I need to get the script done so component leads can add their own git repos |
| 14:17 | @emrys | I'm working on that today |
| 14:17 | @emrys | by adding ruskie's licenses repo and making the script as I go so stuff doesn't get missed |
| 14:18 | @emrys | the other thing I need to do with git is move some repos around so we can add the p4 history ones back in without spamming the list |
| 14:18 | @emrys | but that means closing the existing one and putting it in another location and making people clone it again...are people ok with me doing that some evening? |
| 14:19 | @lynxlynxlynx | isn't that just an issue for the grimoire (p4 history)? |
| 14:19 | @sandalle | emrys: the currently active grimoire.git or the old P4 history one? (recloning) |
| 14:19 | * | lynxlynxlynx is ok, with a big fat warning included |
| 14:19 | @emrys | mostly |
| 14:19 | @emrys | but you wanted me to move sorcery too |
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| 14:20 | * | sandalle can reclone |
| 14:20 | @emrys | sandalle: the location of the current active grimoire.git would change |
| 14:20 | @lynxlynxlynx | yes, but it has the history - can't just some paths be changed in the clone? |
| 14:20 | @emrys | it needs to move from smgl/grimoire.git to smgl/grimoire/grimoire.git |
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| 14:20 | @emrys | lynxlynxlynx: I'm not talking about closing the repo or starting over, just moving the directory |
| 14:20 | +ryuji | emrys: if the box can take all of us recloning, i dont think it can be that bad. |
| 14:20 | @emrys | if peope want to tell their clone it moved they can |
| 14:21 | +ryuji | decisions need to be made to re-organize things, so it should be ok |
| 14:21 | @lynxlynxlynx | emrys: i know |
| 14:21 | @lynxlynxlynx | it is just easier for sorcery then |
| 14:21 | @lynxlynxlynx | no need to reclone, just tweak |
| 14:22 | @emrys | as long as git doesn't mind it, and I don't think it would |
| 14:22 | @emrys | anyway, I'll do that some time soon hopefully |
| 14:22 | +ryuji | post in the ML should suffice as a warning |
| 14:22 | @emrys | the mail list stuff I mentioned is a priority for me because it's the big block keeping me from catching back up with things right now |
| 14:22 | @lynxlynxlynx | i also promised dmlb2000 to write that changelog cherrypicker at one point |
| 14:23 | @emrys | you people do not want to be my mailbox |
| 14:23 | @lynxlynxlynx | it proved to be more difficult than expected, so it is sidetracked for now |
| 14:23 | @emrys | I've gotten like a thousand mails just during this meeting |
| 14:23 | @emrys | they're flagged as spam but they're to the -owner addresses, so I'm leery to just drop them |
| 14:24 | @emrys | because new subscriptions to the list get blocked on their first post |
| 14:24 | @emrys | and it mails that address |
| 14:24 | +ryuji | doesn't sandalle also handle those? |
| 14:24 | @emrys | anyway the bottom line is any time I have for smgl mail right now is spent on list BS |
| 14:24 | @emrys | I hope he does heh |
| 14:24 | @sandalle | I do |
| 14:24 | @emrys | I want to get the lists somewhere else so they're manageable again |
| 14:25 | @emrys | alternately if someone else wants to just own them for now I can stop getting them and do other stuff |
| 14:25 | @emrys | afk 1 minute |
| 14:25 | @sandalle | emrys: the ML bounces/etc.? I can take those, I already go through the MLs and discard the spam a few times a week |
| 14:26 | @ruskie | sorry stepped out |
| 14:27 | @emrys | can we go ahead as well and drop the section aliases? |
| 14:27 | @ruskie | I see I got buzzed a few times |
| 14:27 | @emrys | I get another few thousand a day from those |
| 14:27 | @emrys | which I can just drop but I doubt we need those anymore? |
| 14:27 | +ryuji | emrys: you can drop inactive section aliases |
| 14:27 | @emrys | we fixed all the bugs long ago |
| 14:27 | @emrys | ryuji: none of the section aliases point at maintainers anymore |
| 14:27 | @emrys | or they shouldn't |
| 14:27 | +ryuji | ah, didnt know that detail. |
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| 14:27 | @emrys | none of them should be getting used for many months now |
| 14:27 | @sandalle | emrys: I'm not sure if any of the devs still use them. Might want to ask on the ML before dropping them |
| 14:27 | @lynxlynxlynx | kill 'em off then |
| 14:27 | @ruskie | games@ should stay... but other than that... no issues here |
| 14:28 | +ryuji | if it's less spam on somebody's inbox, by all means its ok |
| 14:28 | @emrys | I guess a few of them do still point to people, maybe that was the recent we didn't delete them back when we swithed |
| 14:28 | @emrys | but the goal was to switch the bugs, wait a bit, then delete them |
| 14:29 | @emrys | and it's been more than a bit |
| 14:29 | @emrys | I guess I can send a mail with a list and then delete them soon |
| 14:29 | @emrys | and I can delete the ones that point at me now |
| 14:30 | +ryuji | emrys: that'd also help sandalle |
| 14:30 | +ryuji | you two get the most amount of spam i've ever seen |
| 14:30 | @emrys | yeah he gets most of what I get |
| 14:30 | @sandalle | and it's a *lot* |
| 14:31 | @lynxlynxlynx | can't some of it be filtered? |
| 14:31 | @emrys | lynxlynxlynx: the problem is it's ostensibly administrative mail |
| 14:31 | @emrys | if it can't be dropped directly for some reason it has to be monitored |
| 14:31 | @emrys | but it's 99.9999999% junk, if not 100% |
| 14:32 | +ryuji | ruskie: you were prodded about the status of getting stuff from Drupal to the wiki, iirc |
| 14:32 | @ruskie | ahhh |
| 14:32 | @emrys | the stability piece I mentioned it the server move and picking up from there the mirroring stuff again |
| 14:32 | +ryuji | emrys: the week or two I was holding mail for sandalle, only 2% of it was legit |
| 14:32 | @ruskie | well Jucato has been helping with that... |
| 14:32 | @emrys | ruskie: we'll come back to you in a bit |
| 14:32 | @ruskie | k |
| 14:33 | @emrys | I'm still planning to piggyback building this new server on some similar stuff I'm doing at work |
| 14:33 | @emrys | which is taking a break for the LISA conference this week but will be happening the week after that |
| 14:33 | @emrys | once it's done at work I can spend a weekend day doing it for us and then schedule some services downtime to move things as they're ready |
| 14:33 | @emrys | I don't intend to move drupal |
| 14:33 | +ryuji | emrys: what is to be done? |
| 14:34 | @emrys | there's a decent chance I can make time during the move to set up fudforums though |
| 14:34 | +ryuji | the main website replaced with a slimemr version? |
| 14:34 | @emrys | and new MLs if we can have that discussion some time |
| 14:34 | @emrys | ryuji: the wiki |
| 14:34 | +ryuji | emrys: the wiki as front page all out? ok. |
| 14:34 | +ryuji | gotta setup the ACL's before that |
| 14:34 | @ruskie | the wiki now that it has a decent skin and will be immutable I take it |
| 14:35 | @emrys | I do intend to get things like bugzilla and moinmoin updated on the move |
| 14:35 | @emrys | as in I'll get the data from the backups but not the installs, hopefully |
| 14:35 | @emrys | if getting the old data into new installs isn't problematic |
| 14:35 | +ryuji | i sure hope not |
| 14:37 | @emrys | on the ML front, do we have anyone completely wedded to the idea of using mailman? it's not fun from an admin perspective, there are much better options for automation and integration with other stuff |
| 14:37 | @ruskie | whatever you find that works... |
| 14:37 | @emrys | I want to move us to one of those that mostly uses email for administration, still with web archives of course |
| 14:37 | @ruskie | but provide a web interface atleast for some admin |
| 14:37 | @ruskie | i.e. user settings if any |
| 14:37 | @ruskie | changing emails etc... |
| 14:37 | +ryuji | emrys: will our servers be hosting the new alternative, if any? |
| 14:38 | @emrys | ryuji: yes |
| 14:38 | @ruskie | but beyond that... whatever makes your job easier |
| 14:38 | +ryuji | and yeah, I think it's not bad to thank you emrys for your efforts with our machines :) |
| 14:39 | @emrys | other than those things...like I said LISA is this week but that shouldn't change much |
| 14:40 | @emrys | except hopefully helping me get back into this stuff after leaving the crap job finally |
| 14:40 | @sandalle | emrys: I'm most familiar with mailman, but I'm game for anything |
| 14:40 | +ryuji | i have the whole day free, so i can volunteer as a moderator if needed be |
| 14:40 | @emrys | sandalle: btw I'm sure I'm behind on adding new people to email addresses and irc, send me the list of those if you cant |
| 14:40 | @emrys | I need to finish setting up delegation of those |
| 14:41 | @emrys | s/cant/can/ |
| 14:41 | @emrys | questions for me? |
| 14:42 | * | ruskie listens for the pin |
| 14:42 | @lynxlynxlynx | vote |
| 14:42 | +ryuji | theres a vote pending |
| 14:42 | @ruskie | yup |
| 14:42 | +ryuji | i heard that earlier |
| 14:42 | @sandalle | emrys: I believe you got most of them as Enqlave has his and he's the latest, but I'll check the others |
| 14:42 | @ruskie | vote pending for a lead developer status for novaburst |
| 14:44 | @ruskie | hmm did we have a tome lead vote in september??? |
| 14:44 | +ryuji | i have a few things to poke emrys about, but their priority is low, so ill wait until at least the server move |
| 14:44 | * | ruskie can't remember |
| 14:44 | +ryuji | I dont think so |
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| 14:44 | +ryuji | i dont remember any votes running since lynxlynxlynx's |
| 14:44 | @ruskie | well he can delegate the vote to someone else... |
| 14:44 | +ryuji | ruskie: you. |
| 14:44 | @ruskie | http://wiki.sourcemage.org/SourceMage/Voting_Policy <-- according to that we were supposed to have one in september |
| 14:45 | @lynxlynxlynx | no component votes missed |
| 14:45 | @ruskie | who got elected??? |
| 14:45 | @ruskie | for tome team then? |
| 14:46 | @emrys | we didn't even have anyone nominated for the last one of those |
| 14:46 | @emrys | there should have been a vote but I haven't heard any indication of even a potential nominee |
| 14:47 | @ruskie | if nothing else it sholud have been open atleast to nominations |
| 14:47 | @emrys | the beel vote is sent |
| 14:47 | @ruskie | if there is anything good... else it stops there |
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| 14:47 | * | qnr thinks memoserve should remind people as they enter the channel |
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| 14:48 | @lynxlynx | bah, what did i miss? |
| 14:48 | @emrys | I'll do nominations for it next week |
| 14:48 | @emrys | or sooner |
| 14:48 | @emrys | any other questions for me? |
| 14:48 | @emrys | I suddenly have a pile of screaming children on my lap here. |
| 14:49 | * | novaburst knows that feeling |
| 14:49 | @emrys | if not, ruskie you want to talk about the wiki stuff you people were doing? |
| 14:49 | @ruskie | sure thing |
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| 14:49 | @ruskie | Jucato has been helping with that... most of the project related things(policy, developers etc...) have been transfered to the wiki under the SourceMage/ hierachy |
| 14:50 | @ruskie | but we still need to transfer the docs and any other possible pages that are around |
| 14:50 | @ruskie | also we need some perms to setup ACLs split among atleast all the lead developers |
| 14:50 | @ruskie | as it is anyone can edit any page |
| 14:50 | -!- | Netsplit over, joins: +_kaze_ |
| 14:51 | @ruskie | I'd propose the following layout atm: admins, leads, trusted_users, untrusted_users, unauthorized |
| 14:52 | +ryuji | ruskie: with a "All: read", I assume? |
| 14:52 | @ruskie | untrusted_users would be able to modify only a few pages or would need to have their changes approved by a trusted |
| 14:52 | @ruskie | trusted_users wolud be those that can provide a lot of help generaly(either helping remove spam or anything else) |
| 14:52 | @emrys | we can have that discussion if we need to but it's more detailed than the meeting needs, any other macro business before it goes there? |
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| 14:53 | @ruskie | the ACLs are a priority |
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| 14:53 | @ruskie | would help if we could more easily move the docs from drupal to wiki as well |
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| 14:53 | @emrys | I don't doubt it but they don't need everyone |
| 14:53 | @BearPerson | hmm |
| 14:53 | @BearPerson | what are the drupal docs stored as? |
| 14:53 | @lynxlynxlynx | hehe |
| 14:53 | * | lynxlynxlynx senses a hacker spark |
| 14:54 | @ruskie | other than that I'd urge people to look over drupal pages and see if they can move one or two pages... |
| 14:54 | @ruskie | that would help the whole effort much more easily |
| 14:54 | @emrys | lacking any other general stuff, people who need to leave can and the rest can keep talking about wiki specifics |
| 14:55 | +ryuji | emrys: this concludes the general meeting, now it's post-meeting talk? |
| 14:55 | +abouter | afk, work |
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| 14:56 | @emrys | well the wiki stuff is still relevant to the meeting but people that don't care can assume it's free to go |
| 14:56 | +ryuji | rofer |
| 14:56 | +ryuji | ger* |
| 14:57 | +ryuji | in regards to the wiki, instead of having specific pages for the developers, why not just use our userpages from the wiki itself? examples of its use are links from the developers list for example? |
| 14:57 | @sandalle | Do we have a list of pages which will be immutable and which are modifiable? |
| 14:57 | @emrys | ruskie as far as I'm concerned as long as you guys are doing the work whatever acls you need are fine with me |
| 14:57 | @ruskie | sandalle, not yet |
| 14:58 | +abouter | back |
| 14:58 | @ruskie | and I don't expect it will be a clear cut |
| 14:58 | @ruskie | the way I see it is: all leads full rw access to all pages |
| 14:58 | @sandalle | ryuji: do the user pages allow modification with all the "fun" text? |
| 14:58 | @ruskie | trusted_users: access to all non-project pages(everything not under the SourceMage hiearchy) |
| 14:58 | +ryuji | sandalle: same as a wiki page. |
| 14:59 | +ryuji | sandalle: http://wiki.sourcemage.org/ElisamuelResto for example |
| 14:59 | @sandalle | ryuji: k |
| 14:59 | @ruskie | untrusted: only a small subset |
| 14:59 | @BearPerson | hmm... it might be an interesting anti-spam approach if untrusted users were unable to create new pages |
| 14:59 | @sandalle | ruskie: Can we rename /SourceMage to something else? wiki.sourcemage.org/SourceMage sems redundant to me. :) Perhaps /General? /Info? |
| 14:59 | @ruskie | well I was thinking of having them as apprentices... |
| 14:59 | @sandalle | ruskie: everything under /SourceMage is what's in our current wiki, correct? (other than the Drupal pages moved over) |
| 15:00 | @ruskie | i.e. someone wolud have to approve their first posts or so |
| 15:00 | @ruskie | sandalle, erm |
| 15:00 | @lynxlynxlynx | better yet, once things are all reorganized, that namespace can be removed |
| 15:00 | @ruskie | no issue there |
| 15:01 | @ruskie | but for the time being i makes it easier to separate |
| 15:01 | @sandalle | k |
| 15:01 | @ruskie | it can be direct / stuff |
| 15:01 | @ruskie | what we need atm is to have all leads setup with the ability to setup ACLs |
| 15:01 | @ruskie | currently I belive only the admin can do that |
| 15:02 | @ruskie | and as someone pointed out... there would be a separate hiearchy for each component |
| 15:03 | @lynxlynxlynx | as long as exsisting pages don't receive spam, i don't see this as a big issue |
| 15:03 | @dkowis | sorry I'm hella late |
| 15:03 | @ruskie | lynxlynxlynx, that's a big "don't" |
| 15:03 | @lynxlynxlynx | that would change once drupal is killed though |
| 15:03 | @ruskie | better be safe than sorry |
| 15:03 | @emrys | dkowis: right on time to talk about wiki acls and spam |
| 15:04 | @dkowis | yep |
| 15:04 | @dkowis | and I've done a bit of reading on that subject |
| 15:04 | @dkowis | ACLs are a management nightmare |
| 15:04 | @ruskie | why? |
| 15:04 | @dkowis | because someone has to maintain them |
| 15:04 | @dkowis | and we're lazy |
| 15:04 | @dkowis | stand by as I pull up a link for an alternative management scheme |
| 15:05 | @ruskie | no... we just lack an active tome team |
| 15:05 | @ruskie | lazy beeing the natural form of existance in most cases ;) |
| 15:05 | +ryuji | agree with ruskie |
| 15:05 | @dkowis | and we've tried many times to generate an "active" tome team |
| 15:05 | @dkowis | it hasn't happened |
| 15:05 | +abouter | true |
| 15:06 | @dkowis | therefore we should operate under the precedent that it's not going to happen and make it easier on the few of us that can spend the time to make things happen |
| 15:06 | @ruskie | well as said leads would get acl managment... any and all leads |
| 15:06 | @dkowis | still too much to do |
| 15:06 | @ruskie | spread over 10 or so people |
| 15:06 | +ryuji | ACL management for their component, no? |
| 15:06 | +ryuji | too much? |
| 15:06 | @ruskie | for the entire wiki... |
| 15:06 | @dkowis | http://moinmo.in/FeatureRequests/AccountCreationPasswordAntiSpamMechanism?highlight=%28CategoryFeaturePatched%5Cb%29 |
| 15:06 | @dkowis | that patch |
| 15:06 | @dkowis | will provide us all the anti spam we want |
| 15:06 | @dkowis | in an extremely easy way to manage it |
| 15:06 | @ruskie | until a human hits it |
| 15:06 | @dkowis | huh? |
| 15:07 | @dkowis | we're not worried about human spam, we're worried about bot spam |
| 15:07 | @emrys | if the acls are kept in text we can automate the list |
| 15:07 | @ruskie | no issues there |
| 15:07 | +ryuji | they are in text |
| 15:08 | @BearPerson | dkowis, I believe our spam is actually fairly human, just underpaid chinese |
| 15:08 | @ruskie | dkowis, that patch already mentions the downside... |
| 15:08 | @ruskie | However, it does not work if spammers fake the POST ending up in UserSettingsHandler.handleData() (which they do in the Wiki I am maintaining...). Spammers circumvent account creation completely somehow - probably by just sending a faked form without one of the create tags but with a save tag. ... |
| 15:08 | @dkowis | in the next version fo moinmoin (1.7) there will be statistical spam |
| 15:08 | +ryuji | one wikipage has the groups, and the acl's are handled in a "#acl GroupName: read,write,etc" line in each page that needs that |
| 15:08 | @ruskie | ... If the other tags are not very wrong the account is created without a create tag also. |
| 15:08 | +ryuji | default ACL is set in the config |
| 15:08 | @ruskie | easily scriptable |
| 15:09 | @dkowis | so we've now got to manage every page that's got an ACL on it |
| 15:09 | @ruskie | generate the groups page from a list of the developers and possibly a second users page and add the relevant #acl stuff to the pages... |
| 15:09 | @dkowis | and we add a layer of difficulty in allowing people to just document stuff |
| 15:09 | @ruskie | all scripted |
| 15:09 | @ruskie | no |
| 15:10 | +ryuji | dkowis: defaults are set in the config itself. emrys would be the final word on what is the default |
| 15:10 | @dkowis | so what's the default? |
| 15:10 | @ruskie | that's the point... we have a set of subpages for $joe_random |
| 15:10 | @dkowis | how is this going to solve our spam problem? |
| 15:10 | @ruskie | which he can freely edit and they don't impact anything important |
| 15:10 | @dkowis | how is that set of subpages defined? |
| 15:10 | @dkowis | this goes against the concept of a wiki |
| 15:10 | @ruskie | though a "authorise first post" might be better |
| 15:11 | @dkowis | what's that? |
| 15:11 | @ruskie | like the mailing lists do it |
| 15:11 | @ruskie | they require a moderator to authorise the first post by any new mail to the ML |
| 15:11 | @dkowis | and is this functionality built into the wiki? |
| 15:11 | @ruskie | no clue... |
| 15:11 | @emrys | fwiw that mailing list models sounds a lot better than it is |
| 15:12 | @emrys | if spam is a real problem it's useless |
| 15:12 | @emrys | because you can't find the legit people in the noise |
| 15:12 | @dkowis | that functionality is not in the wiki |
| 15:12 | @ruskie | dkowis, welcome to the real world... the concept of a wiki in the real world means that it will eventually lead to entropy... hence why we need to lock it down |
| 15:12 | @dkowis | I don't think we need to lock it down |
| 15:12 | @emrys | I tend to prefer a model that has the important stuff edited in git off the wiki and the other stuff open to any registered user |
| 15:13 | @ruskie | I'd agree there emrys |
| 15:13 | @dkowis | I'm in favor of only locking down the important things |
| 15:13 | @lynxlynxlynx | me too |
| 15:13 | @dkowis | of course, this brings up something else |
| 15:13 | +flux_control | I agree with emrys |
| 15:13 | @dkowis | trac has a wiki/bugtracking/and git support |
| 15:13 | @emrys | where the important things are developer lists, policy docs, main page and first tier things linked from main page (with exceptions) |
| 15:13 | @dkowis | all nicely integrated |
| 15:13 | @dkowis | with askimet anti-spam |
| 15:13 | +ryuji | Trac... heh... |
| 15:13 | @ruskie | dkowis, trac is crap |
| 15:13 | +Enqlave | lol |
| 15:13 | @ruskie | the bugtracer is subpar |
| 15:13 | +Enqlave | again |
| 15:13 | @dkowis | you're basing this assumption on? |
| 15:14 | @lynxlynxlynx | it doesn't have a bugzilla plugin? |
| 15:14 | @dkowis | it's no more crap than bugzilla is |
| 15:14 | @ruskie | it's git support is alpha quality compared to gitweb |
| 15:14 | @emrys | I don't really want one ring to rule them all |
| 15:14 | +flux_control | lol emrys |
| 15:14 | @ruskie | the only thing that trac has is the wiki |
| 15:14 | +flux_control | but true |
| 15:14 | @ruskie | dkowis, I used trac plenty of times on various sites and still curse it each time... |
| 15:14 | @dkowis | and it's got git support and better anti-spam than moinmoin |
| 15:15 | @ruskie | and as emrys said we don't need a one ring to rule them all |
| 15:15 | @lynxlynxlynx | ruskie: when was the last time you tried? |
| 15:15 | @dkowis | that's not what he said |
| 15:15 | +Enqlave | dkowis: he is completely wrong and used alpha version :P |
| 15:15 | @dkowis | he said he doesn't prefer one ring to rule them all |
| 15:15 | +flux_control | if it's got a better wiki system than moinmoin, is there a way to only use trac's wiki without the rest of it? |
| 15:15 | @lynxlynxlynx | and it would be cool if we could manage bugs with commits |
| 15:15 | @ruskie | bugscm can do that |
| 15:15 | @ruskie | or scmbug |
| 15:15 | @dkowis | we might be able to do that |
| 15:16 | @ruskie | and it doesn't tie us to a single tool |
| 15:16 | @dkowis | wtf is wrong with using a single tool if it does everything we need it to do? |
| 15:16 | @emrys | it never does everything we need it to do |
| 15:16 | @ruskie | lynxlynxlynx, on various sites so far |
| 15:16 | @dkowis | well nothing else does either |
| 15:16 | @dkowis | I like the idea of integrated bugzilla and wiki |
| 15:16 | @lynxlynxlynx | when not where |
| 15:16 | @ruskie | lynxlynxlynx, a week or so ago |
| 15:16 | @dkowis | so bug links work nicely |
| 15:16 | @emrys | do-it-all systems tend to do everthing, poorly |
| 15:17 | @dkowis | # |
| 15:17 | @dkowis | # BugzillaIssueTrackingPlugin Issue Tracking with Bugzilla (bug, bugzilla, issue, ticket, 0.10, javajunky, plugin) |
| 15:17 | @ruskie | I'm with emrys on this one... |
| 15:17 | @dkowis | they've got a plugin for bugzilla |
| 15:17 | @dkowis | and a plugin for git |
| 15:17 | @dkowis | and an askimet plugin, which would solve our spam problem |
| 15:17 | +Enqlave | well... trac is a good for us |
| 15:17 | @dkowis | # |
| 15:17 | @dkowis | # GitwebPlugin Embed gitweb in Trac (0.10, 0.11, coderanger, plugin) |
| 15:18 | @ruskie | last I heard it was recommended to better use gitweb if you wanted git... not that plugin |
| 15:18 | +Enqlave | with its auth system, ticket-system and lots of plugins |
| 15:18 | @lynxlynxlynx | gitweb is readonly |
| 15:18 | * | dkowis notes it's embedding gitweb |
| 15:18 | +Enqlave | ruskie: trac has TWO plugins for git |
| 15:18 | @ruskie | ahh |
| 15:18 | +Enqlave | yehh |
| 15:18 | +Enqlave | :P |
| 15:18 | @emrys | I can't pretend I've used trac in detail but every time I've worked with a project that uses it I've found it difficult to figure anything out, which at least means I'd want us to do an eval of it first, and I don't know how that could happen in a reasonable time frame |
| 15:18 | @ruskie | lynxlynxlynx, and we need anything more from the web than read only? |
| 15:18 | @lynxlynxlynx | i'm all with dkowis here, especially if he is willing to try to make it happen |
| 15:18 | @dkowis | or we can wait on moinmoin to come to version 1.7 which will have antispam |
| 15:19 | @lynxlynxlynx | ruskie: no, so where is the problem? |
| 15:19 | @emrys | at this point though when I see projects using trac I tend to move to something else for that reason alone :-P |
| 15:19 | @dkowis | I'm willing to try to set this up |
| 15:19 | @dkowis | jeez |
| 15:19 | * | Enqlave with dkowis here too :> |
| 15:19 | @dkowis | could that be due to poor setup? |
| 15:19 | @lynxlynxlynx | yes |
| 15:19 | @ruskie | guess this might be boiling into an issue vote |
| 15:19 | @emrys | yes, but for all of them? |
| 15:19 | @lynxlynxlynx | the default roadmap and stuff lineup is wierd |
| 15:19 | @dkowis | admins are lazy? |
| 15:20 | @BearPerson | whenever I see a trac-managed project, I fail utterly at finding usable documentation |
| 15:20 | @dkowis | we're different than your typical user? |
| 15:20 | @emrys | it's a waste of time to have a vote over something we don't even have a sample of |
| 15:20 | @ruskie | :) |
| 15:20 | @dkowis | I'm shy a power supply, otherwise I'd have this up already |
| 15:20 | @ruskie | what backend does trac uses? |
| 15:20 | @emrys | if someone wants to take the time to set something up for peope to look at I don't have a problem with it |
| 15:20 | @ruskie | for storage |
| 15:20 | +Enqlave | a lots |
| 15:20 | @ruskie | flat files? |
| 15:20 | +flux_control | I'm in favor of just having a link to gitweb and KISS |
| 15:20 | +Enqlave | hm, uhm |
| 15:20 | +ryuji | I dont have a usable box to let you test either, dkowis. |
| 15:20 | +Enqlave | ruskie: NO |
| 15:20 | +Enqlave | ruskie: sqlite3 |
| 15:21 | +ryuji | I have a dedicated box in grabs, but it's slated to go down the 21st IIRC |
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| 15:21 | @dkowis | it can use a database, from what I'm initally seeing |
| 15:21 | @dkowis | I was more recently looking for anti-spam features |
| 15:21 | * | ruskie bashes Enqlave's shift and caps locks keys into dust |
| 15:21 | +Enqlave | orly? :) |
| 15:21 | @ruskie | you yell to much |
| 15:21 | @dkowis | no violence |
| 15:21 | +Enqlave | dkowis: what about the server? |
| 15:21 | @dkowis | ? |
| 15:22 | +Enqlave | (if you plan to try trac) |
| 15:22 | @dkowis | I'm shy one power supply that ran my xen box and I had a vm set up for this stuff |
| 15:22 | @dkowis | but it's kind off right now |
| 15:22 | @dkowis | back to the subject |
| 15:22 | @ruskie | well if you can demonstrate that trac is technicaly superior to our current setup... |
| 15:22 | @dkowis | I'm somewhat tentative about using ACLs as they can easily become a management nightmare |
| 15:22 | @emrys | when you say it has git support you mean to browse a repository or to edit the wiki content/etc itself from git? |
| 15:22 | @dkowis | emrys, read-only support |
| 15:23 | @ruskie | emrys, gitweb replacement |
| 15:23 | @dkowis | no, not like that |
| 15:23 | @dkowis | or gitweb embedding |
| 15:23 | @ruskie | yeah |
| 15:23 | @dkowis | I haven't looked into it much more than it exists, I was going to fire up a vm and see what I can get it to do |
| 15:23 | @emrys | it doesn't just have to be technically superior it has to be maintainable, meaning it has to be something any decent sysadmin can walk into, or it just becomes another thing tying our hands like drupal when the interested parties aren't around to work on it |
| 15:23 | @dkowis | I like the integration of tickets within the wiki and such |
| 15:23 | @dkowis | yes |
| 15:23 | +Enqlave | yeah :) |
| 15:23 | @dkowis | I haven't had the time to evaluate that |
| 15:23 | @lynxlynxlynx | anmaster likes and uses trac too, maybe he can give you some advice |
| 15:23 | @ruskie | dkowis, so write a plugin for moin moin to do that |
| 15:24 | @dkowis | that's the whole godamn p0int! |
| 15:24 | @dkowis | I want to avoid doing that! |
| 15:24 | @dkowis | I don't want to have to dedicate our resources to maintaining/developing anything other than SMGL |
| 15:24 | @ruskie | we have a working system and you'd rather replace it with another system instead of adding a plugin? |
| 15:24 | @dkowis | our resources are limited as is |
| 15:24 | @dkowis | if our system is working, why are we talking about dorking it around, why are we dropping drupal? |
| 15:24 | @dkowis | it's not working yet |
| 15:24 | @ruskie | it is |
| 15:25 | @ruskie | just nobody is maintaining it |
| 15:25 | @ruskie | cause it's to convulted |
| 15:25 | @dkowis | then everythings okay, meeting adjourned |
| 15:25 | @ruskie | that's the reason |
| 15:25 | @dkowis | not really, no one cares to maintain it |
| 15:25 | @ruskie | if there were people maintaining it we'd be using it |
| 15:25 | @dkowis | no one's really done anything with the wiki either |
| 15:25 | @ruskie | so help |
| 15:25 | @dkowis | I don't have the time |
| 15:25 | @ruskie | transfer ONE page from drupal to the wiki |
| 15:25 | @dkowis | at least until december |
| 15:26 | @ruskie | that's ALL you need to do |
| 15:26 | @dkowis | that doesn't help our anti-spam |
| 15:26 | @ruskie | it takes roughly 5 minutes to do |
| 15:26 | @dkowis | which is kinda what we're discussing right now |
| 15:26 | @dkowis | this isn't about doing things, this is about how we're going to manage doing things |
| 15:26 | @ruskie | how much spammage does the wiki recive? |
| 15:26 | @dkowis | not much |
| 15:26 | @dkowis | a few pages every couple months |
| 15:26 | @dkowis | maybe |
| 15:26 | @lynxlynxlynx | more |
| 15:26 | @dkowis | not that I've noticed |
| 15:26 | @lynxlynxlynx | every couple of days |
| 15:26 | @ruskie | do we have stats? |
| 15:26 | @dkowis | nope |
| 15:26 | @lynxlynxlynx | see what BearPerson just reverted |
| 15:27 | @ruskie | what are the pages? |
| 15:27 | @dkowis | BearPerson apparently just recently deleted a shitload of spam |
| 15:27 | @BearPerson | that was some 2-3 weeks' worth, I think |
| 15:27 | @dkowis | they were randomly titled pages |
| 15:28 | @ruskie | ok so none of the existing pages actually get hit... |
| 15:28 | @BearPerson | disallowing page creations except by "trusted" users (for some definition of 'trusted') should give us some quiet time. |
| 15:28 | @dkowis | nope |
| 15:28 | @ruskie | yup |
| 15:28 | @ruskie | that would work |
| 15:28 | @ruskie | if it can be done |
| 15:28 | @BearPerson | alternatively, having some sort of rule that you cannot create a page unless there's a link to it somewhere ;P |
| 15:29 | @dkowis | only if we don't have to code that up ourselves |
| 15:29 | @dkowis | # |
| 15:29 | @dkowis | # |
| 15:29 | @dkowis | (!) TextChas are currently being implemented in 1.6. |
| 15:29 | @dkowis | those are an option |
| 15:29 | @dkowis | they ask questions |
| 15:29 | @dkowis | questions we can define |
| 15:29 | @dkowis | http://moinmo.in/TextCha |
| 15:30 | @dkowis | " It is likely we have a bayes classifier in moin 1.7+ (SOC 2007 Project of Marian Neagul), but not in 1.6." |
| 15:30 | @dkowis | so next year they'll have statistical anti spam |
| 15:30 | @dkowis | s/year/release |
| 15:30 | @emrys | so anyway, I repeat what I said before, I like the option of just having the critical stuff git-edit only, and other stuff regular for registered users |
| 15:30 | @emrys | last time I said that we ended up trac apparently because it has a gitweb piece but that's not at all relevant to the use of git I was talking about |
| 15:30 | @dkowis | that's less nasty |
| 15:31 | @dkowis | you want to edit the wiki content in git? |
| 15:31 | @dkowis | how easy is that to integrate? |
| 15:31 | @ruskie | can we collect some statistcs to see what the actually spam issue is vs normal edits or new page creations etc... |
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| 15:31 | @emrys | and frankly I consider the option of being edited offline via git or some scm necessary at this point |
| 15:31 | @emrys | dkowis: unknown exactly how hard but from what research I've done, not horrible |
| 15:32 | @dkowis | well that'd be easier than ACL madness |
| 15:32 | @emrys | the moinmoin people consider it a boring enough question to just tell me yeah sure go rtfm for it |
| 15:32 | @dkowis | we'd only have one ACL |
| 15:32 | @dkowis | I tried RTFM'ing and I didnt' find anything that jumped out at me |
| 15:32 | @BearPerson | ruskie, from what i've seen, spam so far is done exclusively via page creations |
| 15:32 | @emrys | it's not like a section of the manual but the pieces are there |
| 15:32 | @emrys | I've done direct offline editing to test some stuff and it doesn't care at all |
| 15:32 | @emrys | a few wrapper scripts to massage some things would be it |
| 15:32 | @ruskie | so it can be done? than maybe should be put on the todo |
| 15:32 | @dkowis | well that's certainly easier than setting up trac and such |
| 15:33 | @emrys | it's been on my todo |
| 15:33 | @emrys | well, this is all I'm saying |
| 15:33 | @ruskie | ahh lack of time |
| 15:33 | @dkowis | we have a todo? |
| 15:33 | @ruskie | he has a todo :) |
| 15:33 | @dkowis | oh |
| 15:33 | @emrys | moinmoin as the wiki can be edited with git |
| 15:33 | @emrys | gitweb can point to bugzilla and vice versa, the patches exist from what I know |
| 15:33 | @ruskie | I'm all for that option |
| 15:33 | @ruskie | and git commits and bugzilla can be tied as well |
| 15:33 | @dkowis | as long as it fits your earlier requirement of being easy to administer |
| 15:34 | @emrys | this keeps us with a few pieces that all have some people able to pick them up, and a little bit of glue to make them play nice between each other |
| 15:34 | @emrys | well as an admin I much prefer walking into systems like this than monolithic ones |
| 15:34 | @ruskie | using scmbug |
| 15:34 | @emrys | because I can learn them in pieces and they aren't black boxes |
| 15:34 | @ruskie | and the recent version even support bug resolution targets and such |
| 15:34 | @dkowis | works for me |
| 15:34 | @emrys | honestly I think I could chase down and set most of this up across maybe 2 weeks time |
| 15:35 | @emrys | and I remain hopeful I have 2 weeks time coming up sometime |
| 15:35 | @dkowis | I've gotta finish school |
| 15:35 | @dkowis | and get a development box back to life |
| 15:35 | @dkowis | until then I'm kinda not able to do much |
| 15:35 | @dkowis | other than like spell updates |
| 15:35 | @dkowis | maybe |
| 15:35 | @emrys | I gotta do this stuff by the end of the year so people will relected my slacker ass, right? :-) |
| 15:35 | @ruskie | and I start work tomorrow... so my time will be restructured |
| 15:35 | @dkowis | not that any of this hinges on me |
| 15:35 | @dkowis | emrys, yep, start buyin those votes ;P |
| 15:36 | +flux_control | lol |
| 15:36 | @dkowis | did we even have a problem we were searching for a solution to? or were just discussing potential anti-spam measures? |
| 15:36 | +Enqlave | lol |
| 15:36 | @ruskie | you started with antispam :) |
| 15:36 | @dkowis | I didn't |
| 15:36 | @emrys | we were talking about how drupal won't be ther eon the new system |
| 15:36 | @dkowis | oki |
| 15:36 | @BearPerson | dkowis, I think there's two issues |
| 15:36 | @emrys | so people have been putting content into the wiki |
| 15:36 | @BearPerson | one is the existing wiki new-page spam |
| 15:37 | @emrys | and some have this concern if wiki becomes www it will get deluged with spam |
| 15:37 | @ruskie | only thing we planned to discuss was a layout of the wiki and migration of drupal to the wiki |
| 15:37 | @BearPerson | the other is carrying over drupal's protection of stuff like the developer list |
| 15:37 | @dkowis | "*emrys* dkowis: right on time to talk about wiki acls and spam" is what I walked into :P |
| 15:37 | @ruskie | hook-line-and-sinker ;) |
| 15:37 | @dkowis | protection of things that aren't editable by anyone is pretty easy |
| 15:38 | @BearPerson | they should still be editable by leads |
| 15:38 | @ruskie | all pages should be editable by all leads imho... or even all devs |
| 15:38 | @dkowis | well I'd recently done some reading about the anti-spam capabilities of moinmoin and came across the trac stuff |
| 15:38 | @dkowis | I'd prefer all pages to be easily editable by all registered users |
| 15:38 | @dkowis | thats why I really liked the account creation password |
| 15:38 | @ruskie | I meant non-critical stuff |
| 15:38 | @dkowis | I mean all stuff |
| 15:39 | @ruskie | doesn't work that way IRL sadly |
| 15:39 | @dkowis | that's the way we operate |
| 15:39 | @dkowis | that's the way we do everything else |
| 15:39 | @dkowis | any one with any account can do anything they want to with our source |
| 15:39 | @ruskie | erm no |
| 15:39 | @dkowis | we don't restrict access to the linux spell |
| 15:39 | @dkowis | YAH |
| 15:39 | @ruskie | I can't commit to sorcery |
| 15:39 | @ruskie | or to cauldron for example |
| 15:39 | @ruskie | only to grimoire |
| 15:39 | @dkowis | yeah, you don't have an account on those |
| 15:39 | @ruskie | not everyone can commit to games |
| 15:39 | @dkowis | if you did, there wouldn't be special spells you couldn't commit to |
| 15:40 | @emrys | the critical stuff should be editable by leads offline via git |
| 15:40 | @BearPerson | dkowis, there's magic about the developer list in that it's supposed to be the master record of who is a developer |
| 15:40 | @BearPerson | so having random people able to add or remove from it would be Fairly Bad |
| 15:40 | @dkowis | okay |
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| 15:41 | @BearPerson | but I agree that most of the other stuff can probably stay publicly-editable-until-spammed |
| 15:41 | @dkowis | I think emrys' solution is a good one |
| 15:41 | +flux_control | me too |
| 15:41 | @dkowis | and I'll do whatever I can to make it work better |
| 15:41 | @dkowis | it's simple, easy, fits our current way of doing stuff |
| 15:41 | +flux_control | I'm in favor of git-managing things because it Just Works |
| 15:41 | @emrys | then get your ass to dfw this week and we can do it during lisa :-P |
| 15:42 | @lynxlynxlynx | idea: chmod -w the few pages |
| 15:42 | +ryuji | lol |
| 15:42 | @dkowis | I can't afford it :( |
| 15:42 | @dkowis | i r broek |
| 15:42 | @lynxlynxlynx | people with ssh access can deal with that |
| 15:42 | @BearPerson | lynxlynxlynx, would work, but revision history would be nice to have |
| 15:42 | @dkowis | don't have time fof |
| 15:42 | @dkowis | off |
| 15:42 | @lynxlynxlynx | BearPerson: that's a general problem of offsite editing |
| 15:42 | @BearPerson | git would solve it, though |
| 15:43 | @dkowis | git does indeed resolve revision history |
| 15:43 | @ruskie | revisions would be stored in git instead of on the wiki :) |
| 15:43 | +flux_control | that would IMO be more secure as well |
| 15:43 | @dkowis | well, from what I understand it, git would become the backend for the wiki |
| 15:43 | +flux_control | plus easier to track |
| 15:43 | @dkowis | rather than whatever internal change management it uses |
| 15:43 | @dkowis | I think |
| 15:43 | @BearPerson | well, at least for the restrictedish stuff |
| 15:43 | +flux_control | git as a backend sounds nice |
| 15:43 | @lynxlynxlynx | hmm |
| 15:45 | @emrys | this is like deja vu all over again |
| 15:45 | @ruskie | lol |
| 15:45 | +ryuji | emrys: admit youre enjoying it |
| 15:45 | @ruskie | we like going in circles |
| 15:45 | @ruskie | in case nobody yet noticed it |
| 15:46 | +flux_control | we had git as a backend for things before? |
| 15:46 | @dkowis | nope |
| 15:46 | @dkowis | we talked about doing it, but nothing happened |
| 15:46 | @dkowis | we do that lots |
| 15:47 | @dkowis | as long as no one brings up GPG signing |
| 15:47 | @dkowis | then we start killing eachother |
| 15:47 | @ruskie | lol |
| 15:47 | +flux_control | haha |
| 15:47 | @ruskie | we have a nice solution for that anyway... |
| 15:47 | @ruskie | start killing upstream one by one until they do it :) |
| 15:47 | +flux_control | lol |
| 15:48 | * | flux_control readies his flying dagger of gpg-upstreaminess |
| 15:48 | +flux_control | :-P |
| 15:48 | @emrys | ok you guys keep working on the wiki content stuff and get whatever acls you need to do that for now |
| 15:48 | @emrys | I'll work on this backend stuff |
| 15:48 | @emrys | I'll try to work on it this week |
| 15:48 | @emrys | meeting adjourned |