Times are UTC +0200 May 08 21:08:50 <sandalle> ---BEGIN LOG--- May 08 21:09:07 <sandalle> Thanks everyone for showing up at this (possibly odd) hour. :) May 08 21:09:34 <sandalle> I'd like us to try and keep this short (;))) as we talk about our 1.0 !RoadMap available here: http://wiki.sourcemage.org/index.php?page=SourceMageRoadMap May 08 21:09:54 <sandalle> A few of our teams are missing because I was absentminded when I scheduled this on Mother's Day. ;/ May 08 21:10:18 <sandalle> I do have comments from them so we can still talk about them and they can read the log May 08 21:10:33 <sandalle> First up will be our ISO team May 08 21:10:58 * !BearPerson looks up May 08 21:11:08 <sandalle> they're currently working in two directions: cleaning up the old scripts (Benoit) and working on a new installer (David Kowis) and ISO generation (Karsten) May 08 21:11:33 <sandalle> the QA Team (Seth) has been testing the current scripts (Benoit) and filed bugs against them to have the fixes in May 08 21:11:33 <dkowis> Karsten has moved his focus somewhat to the installer, since I've been not very productive with it May 08 21:11:45 <sandalle> the other scripts haven't been tested by anyone outside the team yet May 08 21:11:49 <sandalle> dkowis: thanks. :) May 08 21:11:57 <dkowis> I believe the current focus of Karsten and I is to get the installer working May 08 21:12:11 <e-type> here too May 08 21:12:12 <sandalle> the installer will work for both the current ISO (Benoit) and the new ISO (Karsten) I believe May 08 21:12:19 <!BearPerson> after which I will turn back to the ISO generation May 08 21:12:37 <afrayedknot> when can we expect the new installer to be ready? May 08 21:12:39 <sandalle> (three directions, thanks Alex) May 08 21:12:45 <Alex> :) May 08 21:12:55 <!BearPerson> Although it may require some pre-generation of lists (so some added code), it should work on both systems May 08 21:13:00 <sandalle> The 0.9.4 ISO will be using the current scripts, but I have no ETA on when that'll be ready May 08 21:13:09 <sandalle> the 0.9.5-1.0 ISOs will use the new scripts, if they're ready May 08 21:13:25 <dkowis> who's new scripts? May 08 21:13:26 <sandalle> !BearPerson, dkowis: Care to comment on your progress and if you have an ETA? May 08 21:13:36 <afrayedknot> dkowis: your new scripts May 08 21:13:36 <sandalle> dkowis: your new installer work and !BearPerson's ISO generation scripts May 08 21:13:44 <dkowis> ah ok May 08 21:14:10 <!BearPerson> I'm currently in the process of sifting through code May 08 21:14:16 <dkowis> well !BearPerson's probably done more work on it than I have, so perhaps he'd be the best guess for ETA May 08 21:14:29 <!BearPerson> I'd say a third of the code is re-written and should work May 08 21:14:48 <Thomas_H> and when can we expect a new 0.9.4-test iso ? May 08 21:14:51 <!BearPerson> two more thirds need some looking through and will be hooked in place May 08 21:14:53 <sandalle> !BearPerson: should work as in we can build an ISO from it by just running one script? (perhaps with some initial setup needed?) May 08 21:14:55 <dkowis> I will be getting back into it starting this week, hopefully, got some more RL things to take care of however (Studying) May 08 21:15:04 <sandalle> dkowis: thanks. :) May 08 21:15:13 <dkowis> sandalle: I dobelieve it's the installer he's talking about May 08 21:15:22 <sandalle> Thomas_H: Benoit hasn't given me an ETA for the next -test release May 08 21:15:39 <sandalle> Thomas_H: I believe he's waiting on feedback for the scripts (which Seth gave him just last week) May 08 21:15:51 <Thomas_H> ok May 08 21:16:02 <sandalle> hi benoit, we're just covering the ETA for the next 0.9.4 -test release May 08 21:16:17 <benoit> ok May 08 21:16:28 <benoit> sorry for being late, i thought i was in 2 hours May 08 21:16:40 <benoit> and my summary is still not made :-( May 08 21:16:48 <sandalle> benoit: no problem, just wing it. :) May 08 21:17:16 <sandalle> !BearPerson: so a few more weeks for the installer then? and then it'll be ready for the 0.9.4-style ISOs or just the new ISOs? May 08 21:17:20 <benoit> i'm still busy btw ... but will try to follow important question May 08 21:17:30 <sandalle> benoit: k May 08 21:17:40 <!BearPerson> I don't think they'll make 0.9.4 May 08 21:17:43 <benoit> feel free to bug me in private if needed. May 08 21:17:56 <sandalle> benoit: okay May 08 21:18:12 <dkowis> !BearPerson: as in incompatible, or not ready in time? May 08 21:18:22 <!BearPerson> not ready in time May 08 21:18:29 <sandalle> !BearPerson: so just your ISO scripts then. Can they work with the current scripts in case your ISO generation isn't ready? May 08 21:18:31 <dkowis> ok May 08 21:18:45 <sandalle> e.g. for 0.9.5 if it's using the current scripts? May 08 21:18:59 <!BearPerson> they should, the current scripts would have to run a few lines to pre-generate some lists, but it should work May 08 21:19:16 <!BearPerson> maybe one or two files need to be created, but nothing major May 08 21:19:22 <sandalle> !BearPerson: good to hear. :) May 08 21:19:23 <dkowis> where "scripts" = iso generation scripts ? May 08 21:19:31 <!BearPerson> right May 08 21:19:32 <sandalle> dkowis: yes May 08 21:19:36 <dkowis> ok May 08 21:19:44 * dkowis gets confused easly for some reason May 08 21:20:07 <sandalle> benoit: Any ETA for the next 0.9.4 -test release? May 08 21:21:08 <!BearPerson> I suppose he's busy May 08 21:21:18 <sandalle> !BearPerson: we can come back when he has time then May 08 21:21:33 <sandalle> Any questions/comments about the ISO process? May 08 21:21:57 <sandalle> Keep in mind the QA Team has been testing the current ISO scripts to help out for the next -test release May 08 21:22:06 <sandalle> (more on the QA Team later) May 08 21:22:27 <Thomas_H> about shadow in the ISO ? May 08 21:22:36 <dkowis> I suppose thats about it on the ISO team... shadow? May 08 21:23:01 <sandalle> Thomas_H: #7992 or #8804? May 08 21:23:04 <!BearPerson> currently shadow is on and installed by the ISO, I think May 08 21:23:06 <Thomas_H> 8804 May 08 21:23:08 <benoit> i'd like to thank the QA Team for his work on the ISO Scripts. May 08 21:23:30 <benoit> for the next release ETA, my original plan was to fix all major bugs May 08 21:23:30 <dkowis> was that the nasty bug where the root password was in /etc/passwd instead of /etc/shadow ? May 08 21:23:34 <sandalle> benoit: Seth isn't here right now, but will be back later, so he won't be responding right away May 08 21:23:40 <benoit> but right now, bugs are added as soon as i fixed them May 08 21:23:41 <Thomas_H> !BearPerson, I tested on the test3, and it's not May 08 21:24:10 <sandalle> benoit: I think that's why the QA Team has started to help -test and hopefully provide patches if they know the fix May 08 21:24:11 <benoit> so, i think we should somehow start a process of releasing test ISO on a weekly or biweekly basis May 08 21:24:22 <afrayedknot> thats what seth was trying to do May 08 21:24:26 <sandalle> benoit: faster -test releases would be great. :) May 08 21:24:37 <dkowis> I've got a box that just needs to be set up to generate isos May 08 21:24:39 <benoit> the ISO build scripts are now able to produce an ISO in a short time (provided all spells are compiled...) May 08 21:24:46 <sandalle> benoit: then you can also get feedback on the bugs faster (hopefully) May 08 21:24:48 <Thomas_H> and since shadow is part of basesytem, it may be a good idea May 08 21:24:55 <benoit> sandalle: I think so. right. May 08 21:25:25 <benoit> sandalle: ok. i write this decision then : switch to weekly or biweekly ISO. May 08 21:25:36 <afrayedknot> dkowis: maybe you could work on getting that box going with the current iso scripts? May 08 21:25:48 <Thomas_H> sandalle, in fact I think #7992 or #8804 may be related May 08 21:26:02 <sandalle> benoit: yep May 08 21:26:08 <dkowis> afrayedknot: fine by me... that's benoit's scripts right? May 08 21:26:13 <afrayedknot> yea May 08 21:26:14 <sandalle> Thomas_H: I just made #8804 depend on #7992. ;) since you need the file to use it May 08 21:26:17 <sandalle> dkowis: correct May 08 21:26:29 <sandalle> benoit: let us know what we can do to help as well May 08 21:26:34 * dkowis makes a note to set up another chroot for benoits scripts May 08 21:26:44 <sandalle> benoit: Seth's setup will probably help test the faster releases, too May 08 21:26:51 <sandalle> dkowis: that's what I did. :) May 08 21:27:10 <sandalle> Thomas_H, benoit: So we're agreed that the ISO should use shadow by default? May 08 21:27:22 <dkowis> I've got two already for Karsten's scripts, but they've not been set up yet May 08 21:27:26 <sandalle> (this isn't really the place to discuss bugs, though. ;)) May 08 21:27:28 <benoit> sandalle: agreed. but AFAIK, it should be done in the spell itself. May 08 21:27:39 * ruskie loudly stumbles in and looks around for a free place to sit where he can doze off unless someone bashes on his screen... May 08 21:27:43 <sandalle> benoit: the shadow spell, probably May 08 21:27:55 <sandalle> benoit: mind filing a bug on that? May 08 21:28:03 <sandalle> Any other comments/questions for the ISO Team? May 08 21:28:06 <benoit> correct. afrayedknot has worked on it (and filled a bug already) May 08 21:28:06 <afrayedknot> theres already a bug on that May 08 21:28:24 * dkowis prepares for dodgy answers... May 08 21:28:30 <sandalle> afrayedknot: #8105, thanks. :) May 08 21:28:54 <benoit> maybe that's the right time to announce that I'll setup a vote to be ISO Lead? May 08 21:29:09 <sandalle> Updated #8804 May 08 21:29:19 <sandalle> benoit: that'd be an e-mail to sm-discuss May 08 21:29:30 <benoit> yep. May 08 21:29:38 <sandalle> benoit: and that might be timely. :) I'll get to that after the questions are done May 08 21:29:39 <benoit> but i wanted to let all developpers know my intention. May 08 21:29:46 <sandalle> benoit: k. :) May 08 21:29:54 <sandalle> Any more ISO Team questions/comments? May 08 21:29:56 <Asha`man> hmm, maybe we should have some sanity checks on compilations May 08 21:30:05 <benoit> so that anyone be surprised :-) May 08 21:30:06 <!BearPerson> is this ISO-related? May 08 21:30:14 <dkowis> Asha`man on the ISO or something? May 08 21:30:21 <Thomas_H> sandalle: I'll create another bug to do the `pwconv` thing in the spell May 08 21:30:22 <sandalle> Asha`man: for ISO compilations? May 08 21:30:31 <afrayedknot> id like it to work first May 08 21:30:31 <Asha`man> sorry, wrong window May 08 21:30:32 <sandalle> Thomas_H: thanks May 08 21:31:57 <dkowis> so this wraps up the ISO segment of this presentation May 08 21:32:01 <dkowis> i think May 08 21:32:44 <afrayedknot> moving right along... May 08 21:33:01 <!BearPerson> benoit will work on regular test releases together with QA, I'll work on the installer and then return to the new generation scripts May 08 21:33:08 * dkowis had thought that the dial up dropped me May 08 21:34:00 <afrayedknot> sandalle: you still here? May 08 21:34:36 * dmlb2000|server thinks I should run over to his house and see... May 08 21:35:12 <ruskie> lol May 08 21:35:45 <!BearPerson> his connection appears to be down May 08 21:35:51 <Asha`man> ah, all you need is to use google maps, get the satalite image May 08 21:36:08 <ruskie> and the coords for the nuke :) May 08 21:36:13 <Asha`man> lol May 08 21:36:23 <!BearPerson> afrayedknot, care to step up to lead the meeting until he's back? May 08 21:36:28 <dmlb2000|server> yeah ping sandalle's connection isn't doing anything... May 08 21:36:31 <afrayedknot> not particularly May 08 21:36:38 <dmlb2000|server> afrayedknot: maybe you should pick it up and go? May 08 21:36:41 <dkowis> this is funny :) May 08 21:36:43 <e-type> :) May 08 21:36:51 <ruskie> anyone has the itineary for this meet? May 08 21:36:58 <afrayedknot> i dont May 08 21:36:59 <Asha`man> I wonder if he's noticed yet May 08 21:37:14 <!BearPerson> okay, he is here but laggy May 08 21:37:19 <Asha`man> gee, it's offly quite in here May 08 21:37:22 <afrayedknot> i'll give him two minutes then i'll step up to the podium May 08 21:37:24 <!BearPerson> --- Ping reply from sandalle : 124.13 second(s) May 08 21:37:28 <dkowis> whoa May 08 21:37:33 * dmlb2000|server calling sandalle cell May 08 21:37:35 * ruskie presses the pause button until sandalle get's back May 08 21:37:47 * dkowis wonders if sandalls' got squirrel's chewing on the lines May 08 21:38:39 <dkowis> well at least we haven't rioted without a leader yet :) May 08 21:38:43 <ruskie> lol May 08 21:38:56 <!BearPerson> please keep the chatter in #sourcemage to make the logs easier to read for people who couldn't attend :) May 08 21:38:56 * afrayedknot begins to get up and wander up to the podium May 08 21:38:59 <dmlb2000|server> yeah his machine is really /really/ busy right now... May 08 21:39:11 <afrayedknot> ... May 08 21:39:14 <dmlb2000|server> so it keeps lagging and timing out... May 08 21:39:17 <dmlb2000|server> irssi. May 08 21:39:21 <afrayedknot> and...okay... May 08 21:39:33 <dmlb2000|server> so he can't type right now. May 08 21:39:48 <afrayedknot> so time for the sorcery teams report May 08 21:40:12 <afrayedknot> you all should know that 1.12.0 got released a few weeks ago May 08 21:40:44 <vlaaad> yes :) May 08 21:40:55 <ruskie> guess so May 08 21:40:56 <afrayedknot> a flurry of bugs came in post release so the test branch has been very active May 08 21:40:59 <sandalle> Kevin would like to announce that he's stepping down as ISO Lead as he doesn't have the time for it, but he will still have time for working on the audio* sections May 08 21:41:18 <ruskie> kevin? May 08 21:41:20 <vlaaad> wb sandalle May 08 21:41:24 <vlaaad> ruskie: unet May 08 21:41:24 * afrayedknot pauses mid-sentence May 08 21:41:27 <ruskie> ahhh May 08 21:41:29 <afrayedknot> kevin == unet May 08 21:41:48 * ruskie get's confused if he doesn't have a hash of nick <-> name May 08 21:41:55 * afrayedknot wonders if sandalle is really back May 08 21:42:09 <Asha`man> afrayedknot: that message was typed 20 min ago May 08 21:42:13 <sandalle> afrayedknot: sorry, lag didn't let me see you were typing May 08 21:42:21 <!BearPerson> whoah May 08 21:42:41 <sandalle> So the ISO Team lead position is now open and I will be sending an e-mail asking for nominations May 08 21:42:57 <sandalle> I think that wraps up our ISO Team report unless there are any more questions/comments May 08 21:43:03 * dkowis thinks sandalle should put timestamps on when he send stuff for the moment :) May 08 21:43:09 <sandalle> dkowis: ;) May 08 21:43:26 <dkowis> sandalle: back up to speed ? May 08 21:43:33 <Asha`man> dkowis: his ping is down to .065seconds May 08 21:43:39 <sandalle> yep May 08 21:43:42 <Asha`man> I just pinged him, hope he doesn't mind May 08 21:43:47 <sandalle> Asha`man: not at all May 08 21:43:52 <sandalle> Asha`man: that's what it's for. :) May 08 21:44:01 <sandalle> Nothing else for ISO then? May 08 21:44:25 <sandalle> Thanks dkowis, !BearPerson, and benoit for the information then and we look forward to the faster -test releases and the installer work. :) May 08 21:44:38 <sandalle> next up will be afrayedknot with the ever crucial Sorcery May 08 21:44:48 * afrayedknot steps back up May 08 21:44:49 * sandalle steps aside for afrayedknot May 08 21:45:11 <afrayedknot> so, as i was saying theres been a lot of activity in the test branch May 08 21:45:23 <afrayedknot> im not sure what to make of that exactly May 08 21:45:39 <afrayedknot> was test sorcery 1.12.0-rc not tested enough? May 08 21:45:52 <afrayedknot> should it have stayed in test longer before being released? May 08 21:46:26 <afrayedknot> was it just too big of a release and we were bound to have some issues? May 08 21:47:11 <afrayedknot> or am i the only one who is concerned? May 08 21:47:19 <ruskie> I think not that many ppl use test sorcery... most either go with stable or devel... May 08 21:47:19 <sandalle> afrayedknot: probably a combination of all those changes and people not testing -test May 08 21:47:41 <alley_cat> i don't really understand how it happened, i was using test sorcery all the time and never encountered the problems people reported with stable May 08 21:47:45 <sandalle> http://83.240.17.229/~babca/users/s_graphs.php 15% use -test Sorcery May 08 21:48:09 <emrys[mobile]> it's a very common problem for projectcs like this, I don't think anyone has solved it well yet May 08 21:48:13 <vlaaad> afrayedknot: same here, I always use test sorcery but I didn't have any of those problems May 08 21:48:17 * dmlb2000|server uses test on one of his machines and only encountered the one problem of updating... May 08 21:48:40 <Thomas_H> Thomas_H, same here, nothing critical with test May 08 21:48:47 <sandalle> afrayedknot: Perhaps we need to announce -test releases as well and encourage people to test them? May 08 21:48:49 <abouter> using test all the time May 08 21:48:55 <vlaaad> sandalle: good idea May 08 21:49:04 <Asha`man> it also depends on the combination of commands people use May 08 21:49:11 <sandalle> means more work for afrayedknot ;) May 08 21:49:19 <vlaaad> I'm never know when to update to test sorcery May 08 21:49:21 <afrayedknot> should i send my pre-release announcements to sm-announce? May 08 21:49:31 <abouter> good idea May 08 21:49:35 <alley_cat> sounds like a good idea to me May 08 21:49:41 <sandalle> afrayedknot: hrm...sm-discuss (and sm-users) yes, sm-announce...let's try it and see. :) May 08 21:49:42 <afrayedknot> okay May 08 21:49:46 <vlaaad> afrayedknot: that will be good if you have enough time May 08 21:49:53 <alley_cat> otherwise only people on the p4 submit list see when there's a new test sorcery May 08 21:49:53 <Asha`man> ie, we offer multiple ways to update the grimoire, 1.scribe update, sorcery queue, cast --queue 2. scribe update, sorcery upgrade 3. sorcery system-update May 08 21:49:57 <sandalle> afrayedknot: should we open a -test branch on Freshmeat as well? May 08 21:50:20 <sandalle> Asha`man: true, but they all do the same thing to varying degrees May 08 21:50:20 <Asha`man> a bug in one, may not be found if most people use the others May 08 21:50:28 <sandalle> Asha`man: gotcha May 08 21:50:29 <vlaaad> sorcery update takes a lot of time because of all the checks and it's painful to update every day.. May 08 21:50:39 <sandalle> vlaaad: turn off the checks; it's optional. :) May 08 21:50:41 <afrayedknot> Asha`man: those all go to the same place though, and most of the problems werent with sorcery system-update etc. May 08 21:50:42 <sandalle> vlaaad: though recommended May 08 21:51:03 <sandalle> So we'll announce the -test releases to our mailing lists (including sm-announce) May 08 21:51:05 <vlaaad> sandalle: yes I know, I should do that :) May 08 21:51:06 <sandalle> should we do Freshmeat as well? May 08 21:51:17 <ruskie> yes May 08 21:51:21 <sandalle> (http://freshmeat.net/project/sourcemage for those curious) May 08 21:51:23 <afrayedknot> well, test sorcery can update several times a day if a few bugs come in May 08 21:51:33 <sandalle> (http://freshmeat.net/projects/sourcemage/ rather) May 08 21:51:34 <ruskie> only releases May 08 21:51:54 <ruskie> would make our pr a tad better if ppl see stuff acctually going on May 08 21:52:01 <sandalle> afrayedknot: FreshMeat may get a wider audience and show that we are working on Sorcery still May 08 21:52:08 <sandalle> ruskie: my thoughts as well May 08 21:52:25 <afrayedknot> so you want me to make announcments there whenever theres a minor test update? May 08 21:52:40 <sandalle> afrayedknot: I'd say so, yes. Since multiple updates a day don't happen often May 08 21:52:44 <afrayedknot> okay May 08 21:52:54 <afrayedknot> i'll do that from now on... May 08 21:53:29 <afrayedknot> speaking of 1.12.1, the dust has mostly settled (i hope) so i'll be releasing that as the next stable next week unless someone objects May 08 21:54:05 * dmlb2000|server thinks that's fine... May 08 21:55:26 <afrayedknot> after that 1.12.2 will be released, that release will contain any new/critical bugfixes along with smgl-archspecs adjustments (moving archspecs out of sorcery) and swoolley's libunpack changes for gpg verification of source files May 08 21:56:10 <afrayedknot> at least, thats the plan May 08 21:57:00 <afrayedknot> 1.13 development is focusing on three main features: dispel depends, improving the download code, and integrating on_cast triggers with the depends tree May 08 21:58:02 <sandalle> afrayedknot: sounds good. :) May 08 21:58:13 <vlaaad> afrayedknot: what's wrong with the download code ?? May 08 21:58:22 * vlaaad is just curious :) May 08 21:58:42 <afrayedknot> its not flexible enough, theres several layering violations May 08 21:59:03 <afrayedknot> mostly layering violations that make it a pain to deal with May 08 21:59:35 <afrayedknot> see bug 8209 for more info May 08 21:59:43 <vlaaad> ok thanks :) May 08 22:00:28 <afrayedknot> theres a number of other smaller enhancements in 1.13 as well, but those are the three main projects May 08 22:00:40 <afrayedknot> im mostly done with dispel depends though May 08 22:00:54 <dkowis> just curious, but improving the download code doesn't include moving away from wget or anything does it? May 08 22:01:00 <vlaaad> great May 08 22:01:06 <dkowis> since there's that security notice when casting wget... May 08 22:01:21 <afrayedknot> dkowis: one of the improvements is to split url parsing from downloading May 08 22:01:32 <afrayedknot> so the program that does the downloading is pluggable May 08 22:01:48 <afrayedknot> so we could use curl or prozilla for http/ftp downloading in the future (in theory) May 08 22:02:01 <dkowis> afrayedknot: ok cool May 08 22:02:05 <sandalle> afrayedknot: how close is 1.13 to having the features we need for 1.0? May 08 22:02:29 <afrayedknot> uhm, let me look at our roadmap May 08 22:03:28 <afrayedknot> well...we have build depends on that list May 08 22:03:32 <afrayedknot> which isnt in 1.13 May 08 22:03:40 <afrayedknot> although i dont think we need that for 1.0 May 08 22:04:26 <afrayedknot> but otherwise there doesnt seem to be much on that list that hasnt been done yet May 08 22:04:45 <afrayedknot> or is scheduled to be done for 1.13 May 08 22:04:58 <!BearPerson> I'll hope to keep the man pages on track whenever bugs are filed May 08 22:05:06 <sandalle> !BearPerson: thanks. :) May 08 22:05:09 <afrayedknot> i had originally planned all that stuff into 1.12 but then split it into two releases May 08 22:05:14 <afrayedknot> 1.13 is the remainder of that stuff May 08 22:05:17 <sandalle> afrayedknot: wouldn't build_depends help a lot of our spells be cleaner? May 08 22:05:21 <!BearPerson> But I can't look through perforce commits looking for new/different options all the time May 08 22:05:27 <sandalle> afrayedknot: the split will help test them better, IMO May 08 22:05:35 <afrayedknot> sandalle: i suppose May 08 22:05:42 <!BearPerson> so I'll need people to compare usage messages (usually up-to-date) with manpages and file bugs May 08 22:05:52 <afrayedknot> i dont think its necessary for 1.0 though honestly May 08 22:06:06 <afrayedknot> i mean, a subset of spells need libtool/autconf/automake to build May 08 22:06:10 <dkowis> !BearPerson: a task for the QA team? May 08 22:06:13 <afrayedknot> its only filling a niche for those few spells May 08 22:06:15 <!BearPerson> probably May 08 22:06:32 <dkowis> it'd be nice if that one could be automated, but I cannot think of any way to do so May 08 22:06:37 <sandalle> afrayedknot: perhaps bring it up on the ML and see what others think? I'd be okay with dropping it as it's not necessary, but nice May 08 22:06:40 <afrayedknot> anyways...that concludes my plans for sorcery thusfar May 08 22:06:53 <afrayedknot> any questions for me? May 08 22:07:00 <sandalle> afrayedknot: thanks for the presentation. :) May 08 22:07:03 <afrayedknot> (related to sorcery) May 08 22:07:46 <e-type> :) May 08 22:07:59 * dkowis thinks you get off easy this time :) May 08 22:08:01 <sandalle> afrayedknot: I think I got my questoins out May 08 22:08:08 <dufflebunk> afrayedknot: do you have a date you're aiming for? May 08 22:08:22 <afrayedknot> not really May 08 22:08:30 <dufflebunk> Ok May 08 22:08:36 <alley_cat> afrayedknot: build_depends is actually more than auto* and stuff, but i agree that it can wait till after 1.0 May 08 22:08:36 <afrayedknot> 1.12.2 within a month or so i gues May 08 22:09:06 <afrayedknot> okay May 08 22:09:16 <sandalle> alley_cat: should we bring it up on the ML or just say here that we're dropping it? May 08 22:09:31 <alley_cat> it applies to static libs, gtk-doc and related tools and several other things May 08 22:09:47 <afrayedknot> its actually marked for 1.15 since i forgot it was on the 1.0 roadmap May 08 22:09:49 <alley_cat> i think we can just drop it for 1.0, it's a "nice to have" feature, but not essential May 08 22:10:13 <alley_cat> subdepends would be much more essential, but also quite complicated May 08 22:10:21 <afrayedknot> alley_cat: if you have time can you update bug 7513 (build depends) with some examples of situtations where its useful? May 08 22:10:23 <alley_cat> i still haven't really figured out how they should behave May 08 22:10:42 <sandalle> k, so build_depends will be removed from the 1.0 roadmap May 08 22:10:46 <alley_cat> will do when i find some good samples May 08 22:10:49 <sandalle> Any other questions/comments for afrayedknot (re Sorcery)? May 08 22:11:20 <afrayedknot> would you like me to move 6811 (sub-depends) in to 1.14? its currently on 1.15 May 08 22:11:33 <sandalle> afrayedknot: if it's feasible, yes May 08 22:11:42 <sandalle> afrayedknot: since that'd clean up some problems with the grimoire May 08 22:12:07 <alley_cat> i'd love to see subdepends soon, but first we have to create a spec how they should behave May 08 22:12:20 <afrayedknot> okay moved to 1.14 May 08 22:12:30 <alley_cat> and i really don't have a clue about that yet, every time i start thinking about it my brain starts to melt ;) May 08 22:12:35 <dufflebunk> What? Write the spec /before/ the code? Are you crazy?? May 08 22:12:37 <dufflebunk> ;) May 08 22:12:38 <afrayedknot> yea me too May 08 22:12:40 <ruskie> lol May 08 22:12:45 <abouter> :) May 08 22:12:46 <sandalle> alley_cat: want to start up a discussion on sm-discuss to figure it out? May 08 22:12:53 <afrayedknot> lets hold off May 08 22:13:05 <afrayedknot> theres three major things going on in 1.13 already May 08 22:13:24 <sandalle> afrayedknot: hold off on the discussion or sub-depends in 1.14? May 08 22:13:46 <afrayedknot> hold off the discussion until 1.13 is done May 08 22:13:56 <afrayedknot> (ie in test) May 08 22:14:08 <sandalle> afrayedknot: k May 08 22:14:20 <alley_cat> i'll try to come up with a start of a spec for it until then May 08 22:14:23 <sandalle> Anymore questions for afrayedknot (re Sorcery)? May 08 22:14:25 <sandalle> alley_cat: thanks. :) May 08 22:14:32 <afrayedknot> last call for questions May 08 22:15:43 <afrayedknot> going once May 08 22:15:46 <sandalle> afrayedknot: thanks for the update on Sorcery and I look forward to seeing 1.12.1 ;) May 08 22:16:16 <afrayedknot> going twice May 08 22:16:41 <afrayedknot> okay...im done May 08 22:17:01 <sandalle> afrayedknot: thanks again. :) May 08 22:17:05 * afrayedknot runs back to his seat May 08 22:17:12 <afrayedknot> you're welcome :-) May 08 22:17:17 <sandalle> next up is alley_cat with the progress of our Grimoire Team May 08 22:17:31 * sandalle steps aside for alley_cat May 08 22:17:37 * alley_cat gets up to the podium May 08 22:17:46 <alley_cat> let's start with the good stuff May 08 22:17:50 <e-type> the crowd goes wild for both elders on the podium May 08 22:18:09 <ruskie> lol May 08 22:18:12 <alley_cat> spell lowercasing is almost done, thanks to the various contributors who attacked the perl-cpan and php-pear sections May 08 22:18:31 <alley_cat> i found three spells that don't have a lowercase replacement yet and filed bugs for them May 08 22:18:44 <alley_cat> not counting games and z-rejected, haven't yet looked at those May 08 22:18:58 <alley_cat> http://bugs.sourcemage.org/show_bug.cgi?id=8838 is the master bug for lowercasing May 08 22:19:37 <alley_cat> so we're very close to actually having no uppercase spells left except for the deprecated ones awaiting deletion May 08 22:19:59 <ruskie> games is nearly done as well with lo-case May 08 22:20:10 * swoolley is back May 08 22:20:27 <alley_cat> thanks, should i also file bugs for any games spells still uppercase i find? May 08 22:20:38 <ruskie> not needed May 08 22:20:46 <sandalle> alley_cat: that's pretty good for the lower-casing May 08 22:20:48 <alley_cat> ok :) May 08 22:20:52 <ruskie> as I'm doing the reorganization I'm taking any up-case to lo-case May 08 22:21:08 <!BearPerson> was build_api conversion finished yet? May 08 22:21:11 <ruskie> all sections in the games grimoire should be games-sectionname only by the end of the week May 08 22:21:14 <ruskie> no May 08 22:21:18 <alley_cat> there are probably several depends fixes need to complete the lowercasing, but other than that it looks good May 08 22:21:24 <alley_cat> build_api 2 is close to our target May 08 22:21:36 <alley_cat> devel grimoire is right now at 73.48% build_api 2 May 08 22:21:57 <sandalle> alley_cat: how're we doing on the duplicated_depends, config_query, and local variable cleanup? May 08 22:22:01 <alley_cat> stable obviously much lower because it's been mostly stale recently until the qa team gets the stable-rc stuff up to speed May 08 22:22:19 <alley_cat> local variable is hard to check May 08 22:22:37 <alley_cat> mostly fixing that on a case by case basis whenever i encounter them or see a bug May 08 22:22:40 <swoolley> today or tomorrow I'll branch off stable-rc/0.0 branch and set it up for download/testing. May 08 22:22:52 <alley_cat> swoolley: great :) May 08 22:22:58 <sandalle> swoolley: thanks. :) May 08 22:23:08 <ruskie> games is nowhere near having such a high percentage May 08 22:23:09 <swoolley> http://wiki.sourcemage.org/index.php?page=StableGrimoireUpdate May 08 22:23:16 <swoolley> draft process there. May 08 22:23:32 <alley_cat> don't have any numbers about the config_query progress as i've been too lazy to whip up a script to check it so far May 08 22:24:06 <alley_cat> doing an educated guess i'd say config_query conversion is about halfway done May 08 22:24:16 <alley_cat> i might be totally off on that though ;) May 08 22:24:47 <alley_cat> duplicate dependencies are still very low priority May 08 22:25:15 <alley_cat> since dependency resolution is quite fast thanks to the sorcery team, so fixing them is mostly cosmetics May 08 22:25:32 <sandalle> alley_cat: duplicate dependencies will be easy once someone takes the time, but yes, they're low priority May 08 22:26:13 * swoolley has a script that tracks down duplicate dependencies. May 08 22:26:29 <sandalle> config_query has mostly been done as-it's-found by several people May 08 22:26:36 <sandalle> http://seth.positivism.org/files/searched May 08 22:26:39 <alley_cat> the guru handbook reworking is still on my todo list, haven't found the time to do it yet May 08 22:26:59 <alley_cat> the plan for that is having less big sections but more 'best practice' snippets May 08 22:27:02 <sandalle> alley_cat: that'd help new gurus. :) May 08 22:27:13 <alley_cat> like my recent proposal for multi-version spell handling May 08 22:27:45 <swoolley> sandalle: http://smgl.positivism.org:8080/files/searched is more up-to-date May 08 22:28:06 <alley_cat> about the target of 50 bugs for the grimoire open ... i really don't think we'll even get close to that May 08 22:28:19 <sandalle> swoolley: and it actually loads. :) care to update the roadmap with the correct URLs? May 08 22:28:44 <swoolley> sandalle: sure (and here's the script http://smgl.positivism.org:8080/files/searchdupes _ May 08 22:28:46 <sandalle> alley_cat: well, I'd prefer 0 bugs ;) May 08 22:28:49 <alley_cat> the grimoire is still growing at quite some pace and the bugs are essentially filed as fast as we fix them May 08 22:29:13 <alley_cat> the bug count fluctuates between close to 200 to close to 300 bugs on a regular basis May 08 22:29:45 <sandalle> alley_cat: what would be a more realistic target, then? May 08 22:29:52 <swoolley> 150? May 08 22:30:06 <alley_cat> 150 could be achievable if we work hard May 08 22:30:22 <Asha`man> I think an actual freeze on the grimoire at some point may help May 08 22:30:31 <Asha`man> as swoolley was suggesting May 08 22:30:50 <afrayedknot|LT> maybe the metric should be bugs in the stable grimoire? May 08 22:30:52 <swoolley> Asha`man: only for stable, of course May 08 22:30:59 <sandalle> Asha`man: I think only stable/stable-rc should ever be frozen May 08 22:31:04 <sandalle> since those're what the ISO is built from May 08 22:31:05 <Asha`man> swoolley: of course May 08 22:31:12 <sandalle> and test is optional May 08 22:31:21 <sandalle> afrayedknot|LT: that'd probably be a better idea May 08 22:31:25 <swoolley> and yes, maybe if we can have X bugs in only stable grimoire, that's good enough May 08 22:31:26 <alley_cat> concentrating the bug count on stable might help May 08 22:31:30 <Asha`man> freeze a copy of test, calling it stable-rc, then debug May 08 22:31:48 <Asha`man> 0 bugs on stable-rc -> stable May 08 22:31:54 <alley_cat> there are lots of bugs open that affect stable, but also lots that only affect test and devel May 08 22:31:54 <afrayedknot|LT> thats what the process will be, swoolley im sure will enlighten everyone when its his turn May 08 22:32:10 <Asha`man> using only stable as the metric for 1.0 May 08 22:32:23 * swoolley waits his turn May 08 22:32:23 <sandalle> so 150 bugs in stable for 1.0? May 08 22:32:36 <vlaaad> I will have more free time now, I could help on other sections as my own section is quite up-to-date and clean (I hope :-p ), shall I ask for a General Guru position or can I debug freely through all the grimoire with my current position ? May 08 22:33:03 <alley_cat> another thing we should probably define is that bugs depending on later features like subdepends shouldn't be counted for that, i.e. changed to enhancement bugs May 08 22:33:06 <sandalle> vlaaad: I believe section gurus are automatically allowed to play as a General Guru as well. :) May 08 22:33:17 <afrayedknot|LT> or lower priority May 08 22:33:17 <sandalle> though alley_cat may have a more concise idea on that May 08 22:33:19 <vlaaad> damn :p May 08 22:33:23 <alley_cat> vlaaad: fixing bugs anywhere is open to everyone May 08 22:33:33 <sandalle> vlaaad: ;) May 08 22:33:38 <afrayedknot|LT> and count only bugs above a certain priority May 08 22:33:50 <sandalle> say P3? May 08 22:33:53 <alley_cat> vlaaad: for maintained sections putting fixes to bugzilla first is prefered, unmaintained sections are open for everyone May 08 22:34:00 * vlaaad thinks he's really too concerned about section limitations in the grimoire May 08 22:34:05 <swoolley> alley_cat: we also have "target version" for bugs now May 08 22:34:23 <vlaaad> alley_cat: yes but I think some gurus really need some help with their section May 08 22:34:26 <swoolley> alley_cat: works really well for "defining" what will be in the next release May 08 22:34:37 <ruskie> vlaaad, you're welcome to help around in games-grimoire May 08 22:34:50 <alley_cat> swoolley: you mean the target milestone field? that doesn't have any entries here May 08 22:34:59 <abouter> alley_cat: when you start working on the handbook, can you include some stuff about dekstop files? May 08 22:35:05 <vlaaad> some gurus handles a lot of spell and I'm afraid they can't do all updates, bug fixes, etc... May 08 22:35:19 <vlaaad> ruskie: ok, good to know :) May 08 22:35:31 <ruskie> just make sure you sync first :) May 08 22:35:34 <alley_cat> abouter: i plan to do that, .desktop files, .desktop files for login managers, places to put patching to in spells, stuff like that May 08 22:35:45 <abouter> alley_cat: ok, thanks May 08 22:35:49 <vlaaad> ruskie: ok ;-) May 08 22:35:55 <swoolley> alley_cat: afrayedknot might be able to put something in that field. May 08 22:36:13 <afrayedknot|LT> just let me know what fields you want and i'll add them May 08 22:36:16 <alley_cat> vlaaad: basically if it's stuff in maintained sections, file bugs/attach fixes and wait for some days if the section maintainer finds the time to pick them up May 08 22:36:24 <afrayedknot|LT> same with bug flags, i can add more if we need them May 08 22:36:32 <alley_cat> i can add those field myself i guess, just not sure how it should work May 08 22:36:33 <sandalle> we're at 59 bugs that meet our criteria May 08 22:36:36 <sandalle> stable and P3+ May 08 22:36:48 <sandalle> should we keep it at 50 bugs then? or lower it? raise it? May 08 22:36:50 <swoolley> sandalle: can you add that to the roadmap? May 08 22:36:57 <swoolley> the bugzilla query you did May 08 22:36:59 <sandalle> swoolley: yep, once we determine what we want. :) May 08 22:37:03 <sandalle> http://bugs.sourcemage.org/buglist.cgi?query_format=advanced&short_desc_type=allwordssubstr&short_desc=&product=Codex&version=stable+grimoire&long_desc_type=substring&long_desc=&bug_file_loc_type=allwordssubstr&bug_file_loc=&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=REOPENED&priority=P1&priority=P2&priority=P3&emailassigned_to1=1&emailtype1=substring&email1=&emailassigned_to2=1&emailreporter2=1&emailcc2=1&emailtype2=substring&email2=& May 08 22:37:11 <sandalle> for reference in the logs May 08 22:37:23 <swoolley> got cut off on my end May 08 22:37:39 <sandalle> swoolley: I'll put it on the wiki once we determine what we want May 08 22:37:58 <alley_cat> using priority is a good way imho, so let's say we use P3+ for every bug that is essential for stable? May 08 22:38:12 <alley_cat> and move bugs that apply to stable to that version May 08 22:38:24 <sandalle> of course a lot of people don't use stable anyways so bugs may be there that are only marked for test May 08 22:38:38 <sandalle> alley_cat: sounds good May 08 22:39:08 <alley_cat> ok, i'll schedule that for addition to the guru handbook too May 08 22:39:20 <sandalle> 11.7% of people use stable: http://83.240.17.229/~babca/users/g_graphs.php May 08 22:39:24 <sandalle> alley_cat: thanks. :) May 08 22:39:38 <sandalle> swoolley: query saved to http://wiki.sourcemage.org/index.php?page=SourceMageRoadMap May 08 22:39:40 <alley_cat> people don't use stable because currently test is actually more "stable" May 08 22:39:46 <ruskie> :) May 08 22:39:46 <sandalle> alley_cat: yep. :( May 08 22:39:52 <e-type> got stable here May 08 22:39:53 <alley_cat> which our new qa team will hopefully change :) May 08 22:39:54 <sandalle> which our next team will be talking about. :) May 08 22:39:57 * dkowis uses test May 08 22:40:01 <sandalle> e-type: I use it on 2 machines as well May 08 22:40:06 * dkowis reccommends test as well May 08 22:40:06 <sandalle> the rest use test May 08 22:40:15 <sandalle> Any other questions for alley_cat (re the grimoire)? May 08 22:40:26 <alley_cat> two more things i'd like to mention May 08 22:40:33 <sandalle> alley_cat: oh, sorry. :) May 08 22:41:11 <alley_cat> first, the gcc 4.0 work is going fine on my end so far, with the addition of the GCC_VERSION field i believe we can get this transition done much more fast than we did for 3.4 May 08 22:41:23 <lace> lace likes sandalle's urls :-) May 08 22:41:39 <vlaaad> hehe May 08 22:41:52 <alley_cat> most stuff just works with gcc 4.0 since the spells already have fixes for 3.4 and it's not that much more strict May 08 22:42:17 <sandalle> lace: thanks May 08 22:42:22 <alley_cat> i'll write a mail asking the other gurus to test their sections with 4.0 and switch/fix all spells that fail to sm-discuss during the next days May 08 22:42:34 <sandalle> alley_cat: gcc 4.0 in test would be nice. :) May 08 22:42:47 <alley_cat> most of basesystem now works with 4.0 May 08 22:43:10 <sandalle> alley_cat: I have a pentium3 850 with a chroot for gcc 4.0 I can start it testing with May 08 22:43:45 <alley_cat> sandalle: that would be nice, video-* and xfce are done and i plan to put my list of successful spells on the wiki soon May 08 22:44:27 <sandalle> alley_cat: want to post a URL to it to sm-discuss along with the request for help so people can fill it in? May 08 22:44:45 <sandalle> alley_cat: what was the second item you'd like to mention? May 08 22:45:08 <alley_cat> will post about that to sm-discuss as soon as i got the wiki page up May 08 22:45:19 <alley_cat> the other point is the vcs search :) May 08 22:45:28 <ruskie> \\o/ yay \\o/ May 08 22:45:47 * afrayedknot|LT knew he forgot something May 08 22:45:49 <vlaaad> vcs ?? May 08 22:45:55 <afrayedknot|LT> version control system May 08 22:45:56 <sandalle> vlaaad: CVS, Subversion, Perforce, etc. May 08 22:45:56 <ruskie> version control system May 08 22:45:58 <alley_cat> svk so far did a good job on all tests i made with local repositories and remote svn repositories on my subversion server May 08 22:46:10 <vlaaad> ok thanks :) May 08 22:46:20 <alley_cat> sometimes with a little weird behaviour on partial integrations that can be worked around May 08 22:46:23 * benoit is going to bed ... have to wake up early .... May 08 22:46:29 <benoit> good night :-) May 08 22:46:31 <sandalle> 'night benoit, thanks for showing up. :) May 08 22:46:33 <ruskie> nyx benoit May 08 22:46:49 <swoolley> heh, he didn't stay for my speech May 08 22:46:55 <sandalle> alley_cat: is it open so that other devs can test on it? May 08 22:46:59 <alley_cat> if someone with more bandwidth than me could setup a svn over webdav repository that we could use for more extensive testing that would definitely help May 08 22:47:07 <alley_cat> sandalle: no, due to bandwidth reasons May 08 22:47:14 <sandalle> alley_cat: perhaps Adam can host it? May 08 22:47:25 <afrayedknot|LT> we just need him to get svn working May 08 22:47:33 <dmlb2000|server> sandalle: we might be able to set that up on prometheus... in the lug office... May 08 22:47:42 <sandalle> dmlb2000|server: ooh, that's true May 08 22:47:43 <alley_cat> i'm still searching for a way to import our p4 history into svk May 08 22:47:48 <sandalle> dmlb2000|server: and then we don't hog our server while we test May 08 22:47:54 <sandalle> alley_cat: I thought SVK already did that? May 08 22:47:55 <!BearPerson> Tony couldn't host another vcs? May 08 22:47:59 <dmlb2000|server> sandalle: he's got a really nice connection too. May 08 22:48:02 <alley_cat> for local svk repostiories it can be done automatically, but i haven't yet found a way to bring that into svn May 08 22:48:02 * dufflebunk is tired of having to learn a new program every year to do the same thing as cvs May 08 22:48:10 <sandalle> !BearPerson: no, Perforce just about kills his machines at times. :( May 08 22:48:14 <!BearPerson> :/ May 08 22:48:15 <sandalle> dmlb2000|server: yep. :) May 08 22:48:30 <sandalle> dufflebunk: good for a resume. ;) May 08 22:48:30 <!BearPerson> he's been a pretty reliable server, from what I recall May 08 22:48:32 <alley_cat> dufflebunk: try doing our three branch grimoire work in cvs and start crying ;) May 08 22:48:49 <sandalle> !BearPerson: now that he limits the size of checkouts, yes May 08 22:49:20 <sandalle> I'll see if it's okay with the WSU LUG for hosting and set that up this week (if they let us, but they probably will ;)) May 08 22:49:30 <alley_cat> we could import the p4 history into svk by replaying all changesets if tony can provide us with a complete dump of that May 08 22:49:31 <dufflebunk> alley_cat: I'm not suggesting we use CVS, or even that we don't need to move. I only need the basic stuff, and I hope we won't need to do this again in another year. May 08 22:49:33 <sandalle> alley_cat: I'll contact you once I know more about getting SVK setup May 08 22:49:41 <alley_cat> would probably take quite some time, but should work May 08 22:49:55 <sandalle> dufflebunk: we won't if SVK works out, which is part of the reason of trying it out May 08 22:49:55 <afrayedknot|LT> should someone send mail to Adam asking him to cast subversion on the mirror? May 08 22:50:13 <sandalle> afrayedknot|LT: I think our LUG will host it until we decide if we like SVK or not May 08 22:50:20 <alley_cat> dufflebunk: that's why i evaluated lots of systems, so we end up with a system that really works for us for a longer timeframe May 08 22:50:22 <afrayedknot|LT> okay... May 08 22:50:23 <sandalle> afrayedknot|LT: and then we can have SVN on our server if we do go with it May 08 22:50:30 <sandalle> afrayedknot|LT: no point in installing it if we won't use it (IMO) May 08 22:50:32 <alley_cat> one big disadvantage of svk is that there's no gui for it at all May 08 22:50:42 <sandalle> alley_cat: who uses a GUI...? May 08 22:50:52 <alley_cat> and svn guis must not be use to manipulate the svn repostories svk uses May 08 22:50:53 <sandalle> alley_cat: though one might be in the works May 08 22:50:55 * sandalle hasn't looked May 08 22:51:05 <sandalle> alley_cat: that's good to know May 08 22:51:15 * dufflebunk blushes and admits he uses a gui May 08 22:51:23 <ruskie> alley_cat, maybe you could use this for the history stuff: http://rscm.rubyforge.org/ May 08 22:51:39 <sandalle> So alley_cat has found that SVK works well (for the grimoire at least) and we'll be setting up a test server and announce it to sm-discuss for people to play with May 08 22:51:55 <alley_cat> yeah, that's a point that needs to be made clear if we're going for svk: _never ever_ do any non readonly operation on svk repostories with svn clients May 08 22:51:57 <sandalle> alley_cat: want to get your SVK spells in the grimoire so we don't kill your link with people adding svk-grimoire? ;) May 08 22:52:10 <sandalle> dufflebunk: whatever works. :) May 08 22:52:20 <alley_cat> it's my university's link, and i doubt any slashdotting could kill that ;) May 08 22:52:28 <sandalle> alley_cat: k. :) May 08 22:52:37 <sandalle> alley_cat: I'd still like them in the grimoire, though, when you have time. :) May 08 22:52:47 <sandalle> Any other questions for alley_cat (re the grimoire or SCM)? May 08 22:52:53 <alley_cat> the spells will be merged into the main grimoire as soon as they get descriptions, i'll do that one by one whenever i have some free time May 08 22:53:06 <sandalle> alley_cat: thanks. :) May 08 22:53:30 * ruskie hopes the url will be stored safely in the logs... May 08 22:54:25 <sandalle> Then I'd like to thank alley_cat for his time and look forward to trying out SVK and the grimoire cleanup. :) May 08 22:54:39 <alley_cat> ruskie: i'll look at rscm, but i think if tony can provide a dump it would be a lot easier on his server than pulling every single changeset through p4 May 08 22:55:17 <ruskie> well their ultime goal is to provide a cross-scm interface May 08 22:56:14 <!BearPerson> we probably have about as much as 30% of the entire linux kernel revision history to import May 08 22:56:33 <sandalle> alley_cat: anything else you'd like to add? May 08 22:57:13 <alley_cat> i think i'm done :) May 08 22:58:23 * alley_cat steps down from the podium May 08 22:58:46 <sandalle> alley_cat thanks again. :) May 08 22:59:03 <sandalle> Now, for our next act we bring in the newly formed QA Team, lead by Seth (swoolley) May 08 22:59:10 * sandalle steps aside for swoolley May 08 22:59:16 <ruskie> *applause* May 08 22:59:19 <e-type> going to bed here due to the nice weekend May 08 22:59:24 <e-type> (go swoolley) May 08 22:59:28 <e-type> :) May 08 22:59:41 <sandalle> e-type: thanks for coming. :) May 08 22:59:48 * swoolley is about to paste a big outline May 08 23:00:32 <dkowis> augh, the gimp IRC client on my gf's computer is all borked May 08 23:01:01 <vlaaad> mmm May 08 23:01:11 <vlaaad> sorry I had another question for alley_cat May 08 23:01:23 <vlaaad> shall I ask later ? May 08 23:01:24 <swoolley> well, I'm ready to paste May 08 23:01:31 <swoolley> but if vlaaad has another question May 08 23:01:50 <vlaaad> sorry swoolley :$ May 08 23:01:57 <abouter> swoolley: think you can wait a bit, i'll brb, need to move my laptop downstairs May 08 23:02:01 <vlaaad> I wanted to know what is the final decision about grimoire naming scheme, keywords stuff, etc... ? May 08 23:02:23 * swoolley waits for abouter May 08 23:02:25 <alley_cat> vlaaad: none yet May 08 23:02:41 <vlaaad> ok, that's well what I understood :) May 08 23:02:44 <alley_cat> i think we agreed keywords are a nice addition whatever we do with grimoire naming May 08 23:02:52 <vlaaad> yes, indeed May 08 23:03:19 <dkowis> I've gotta go, unless QA's gonna be real quick... May 08 23:03:21 <alley_cat> the grimoire layout stuff is postponed for now until we decide whether to use svk or not, then we can look what svk gives us as additional possiblities May 08 23:03:55 * swoolley will be really quick once abouter comes May 08 23:03:55 <vlaaad> so eventually, sub-sections ? May 08 23:04:08 <swoolley> I've already written up my contribution ... May 08 23:04:18 * swoolley twiddles fingers for abouter May 08 23:04:24 * afrayedknot|LT wrote up his proposal for grimoire sectioning May 08 23:04:28 <afrayedknot|LT> even coded it May 08 23:05:08 * swoolley wonders what takes so long to move a laptop downstairs May 08 23:05:09 <alley_cat> afrayedknot|LT: I tried it and it looked very nice, I think that's the way to go eventually May 08 23:05:40 * swoolley agrees with alley_cat May 08 23:05:42 <afrayedknot|LT> okay, so we'll do that once the vcs stuff is sorted out May 08 23:05:47 <cdombroski> probably finding a free power outlet May 08 23:05:49 <alley_cat> though with svk and local branches some of this stuff could maybe happen on the developers machine only, not in the actual repository May 08 23:05:54 <alley_cat> still investigating that May 08 23:06:13 <afrayedknot|LT> yea, vcs first, then we'll re-evaluate the situation May 08 23:06:14 <dkowis> swoolley: is it just pretty much what you've outlined in the wiki? May 08 23:06:22 <vlaaad> afrayedknot|LT: can I read it somewhere, or did I miss something ?? May 08 23:06:33 <afrayedknot|LT> its on the ML somewhere... May 08 23:06:42 <afrayedknot|LT> toward the end of the discussion May 08 23:06:45 <vlaaad> ok, i will try to find it May 08 23:06:55 <swoolley> ok. May 08 23:06:59 <vlaaad> there were quite tons of mails in this thread ;-) May 08 23:07:01 <abouter> sorry about that May 08 23:07:09 <swoolley> QA Team Latest Work and Future Items Outline ''reformatted to preserve indent and for readability'' 1) ISO :a) benoit ISO build process ::i) lots of testing has been done ::ii) lots of bugs have been filed ::iii) lots of commits to perforce have been made to clean it up ::iv) near point where it can be automated easily, but needs more sorcery integration ::* sorcery install_root is already used for chroot building ::* needs defaults using sorcery default add ::* needs config and volatiles instead of hardcoded aliens ::* sorcery needs to be integrated into hacked binary cast portion, but for after 0.9.4 :b) dkowis/!BearPerson installer refactoring ::i) lots of installer work, looking good ::ii) not been doing much here myself since it's not ready for QA :c) !BearPerson ISO build process ::i) for down the road post-0.9.4, unless benoit's can be sufficiently refactored 2) stable grimoire integration system :a) http://wiki.sourcemage.org/index.php?page=StableGrimoireUpdate :b) stable-rc/0.0 should be branched today and show up on mirror and sm-grimoire announce :c) new bugfix/security stable-integration flags and approval process tested and working :d) see the link above for a lot more details 3) amd64 multilib issues :a) are almost all fixed in both ISO and spells :b) just need to test + commit spells tuff 4) Prometheus :a) haven't done much on this yet, waiting for stable-rc branch listed in 2b, next week. 5) ISO Unit Testing :a) Novaburst working on ISO testing process :B) should show up on wiki soon with more 6) Sorcery Unit Tests :a) Dufflebunk continues work ''end of reformat'' May 08 23:08:21 <swoolley> EOF May 08 23:08:23 <swoolley> any questions? May 08 23:08:30 <dmlb2000|server> email? May 08 23:08:37 <swoolley> what about email? May 08 23:08:41 <alley_cat> one question about the stable-integration flag May 08 23:08:43 <dmlb2000|server> maybe email it instead of pasting... May 08 23:08:51 <swoolley> dmlb2000|server: heh, I just wrote it up May 08 23:08:56 <swoolley> it's not that long May 08 23:09:11 <dmlb2000|server> swoolley: yeah it just took a while to load... May 08 23:09:14 <alley_cat> if one of us people who can approve that flag wants something integrated to stable, should we ask for approval of one other person? May 08 23:09:28 <alley_cat> would be good imo to get more eyes on the stuff May 08 23:09:40 <swoolley> alley_cat: we can have a review and superreview flag, I guess May 08 23:09:49 <sandalle> alley_cat: I've asked Seth if it was just a stable fix, or Thomas if it was security, and I wanted it in May 08 23:09:51 <swoolley> oh nevermind May 08 23:09:54 <afrayedknot|LT> i would agree, a gatekeeper should not approve their own requests May 08 23:09:57 <swoolley> yeah, you should get another person May 08 23:10:09 <alley_cat> ok, that's what i thought too :) May 08 23:10:10 <swoolley> I misread the question at first :) May 08 23:10:36 <afrayedknot|LT> Thomas_H however shouldnt need approval for security fixes May 08 23:10:58 <swoolley> yeah, he can approve his own security fixes because they tend to be really small May 08 23:11:01 <alley_cat> do you plan to explain that stable-integration flag process for the grimoire gurus on sm-discuss? May 08 23:11:27 <swoolley> alley_cat: it's in the wiki, but yeah, I haven't announced it because it's officially a draft right now May 08 23:11:48 <swoolley> if everybody's ok with the process as outlined, I can refactor it together into an official draft. May 08 23:12:14 <alley_cat> i think the process works as it is now May 08 23:12:26 <swoolley> which process? May 08 23:12:40 <alley_cat> as we tested and discussed it May 08 23:13:01 <swoolley> the flag one? May 08 23:13:14 <alley_cat> yes May 08 23:13:21 <alley_cat> sorry for being unclear ;) May 08 23:13:38 <sandalle> how will we denote a stable version bump from X.y to Z.0? May 08 23:13:56 <sandalle> and how will Sorcery handle versioned grimoires? the same? May 08 23:13:58 <swoolley> sandalle: that's when stable-rc goes to stable May 08 23:14:05 <swoolley> sandalle: they will be the same to sorcery May 08 23:14:11 <sandalle> since it has hard-coded stable, test, etc. May 08 23:14:26 <!BearPerson> will the version numbers be linked to any other versions (sorcery, ISO)? May 08 23:14:34 <afrayedknot|LT> you can scrie add anything though May 08 23:14:38 <sandalle> swoolley: so why have 0.0 and not just 0 if X in X.0 will always be bumped? May 08 23:14:42 <sandalle> !BearPerson: nope May 08 23:14:53 <sandalle> afrayedknot|LT: right, but it won't be "built-in" except for the latest stable May 08 23:15:01 <sandalle> afrayedknot|LT: which is probably what we want, but that's what I'm asking. :) May 08 23:15:17 <!BearPerson> maybe as "scribe add stable-2.3" May 08 23:15:32 <swoolley> sandalle: it will be 0.0 actually, and security/bugfix bumps will be 0.0.1 May 08 23:15:34 <sandalle> !BearPerson: do we even want that since they can do scribe add stable-2.3 from blahblahblah May 08 23:15:53 <swoolley> 0.1.0 will be a new stable-rc -> stable integ May 08 23:16:03 <swoolley> and the major iso releases will bump up version X May 08 23:16:10 <sandalle> swoolley: ahh, I see on your wiki what I was asking, thanks. :) May 08 23:16:17 <swoolley> so each "stable iso" release will have a 1.0.0 2.0.0 for example May 08 23:16:30 <sandalle> and that way you can test the stable-rc's as well and track the bugs May 08 23:16:39 <!BearPerson> X.Y.Z, ISO bumps X, rc bumps Y, small fixes bump Z May 08 23:16:50 <swoolley> yeah, like !BearPerson says May 08 23:17:24 <!BearPerson> so that implies stable ISO releases will be rare May 08 23:17:44 <!BearPerson> maybe only on a minor version bump of an ISO? May 08 23:18:03 <swoolley> stable X.Y always comes from a final stable-rc X.Y May 08 23:18:05 <!BearPerson> like bump on 1.0.3 -> 1.1.0 but not on 0.9.4->0.9.5 May 08 23:18:28 <swoolley> stable X.Y.Z (non-zero Z) always comes from a previous stable X.Y.Z-1 May 08 23:19:04 <swoolley> !BearPerson: stable iso releases should be rare in the future, I'm hoping Y will never be greater than 3 or 4 in the future. May 08 23:19:10 <swoolley> shouldn't be rare rather May 08 23:19:30 <swoolley> a test iso will be released for each .Y bump though. May 08 23:19:39 <swoolley> (If not right away, in the near future) May 08 23:19:40 <!BearPerson> so you'll get stable 12.2.4 very soon? May 08 23:19:59 <swoolley> well, after a year, perhaps. May 08 23:20:15 <!BearPerson> sounds a little fast to me May 08 23:20:33 <sandalle> do we even need the stable grimoire versioned? May 08 23:20:38 <afrayedknot|LT> yes May 08 23:20:51 <swoolley> sandalle: for QA yes we do. May 08 23:21:02 <sandalle> k May 08 23:21:04 <swoolley> otherwise a couple things May 08 23:21:21 <swoolley> 1) people will not be able to say "this bug is targetted for X.Y.Z version" May 08 23:21:32 <swoolley> 2) people will not be able to say "this bug happened in X.Y.Z version" May 08 23:21:46 <sandalle> should this be moved to the ML? May 08 23:21:56 <swoolley> 3) fixing problems in stable won't have the proper branches to follow the best integration paths. May 08 23:22:14 <swoolley> the last is the most important thing in my opinion May 08 23:22:24 <alley_cat> ok, that also answers my question about what entries we want in the "target milestone" filed for grimoire bugs May 08 23:23:06 <!BearPerson> so, does this finish up the QA part? May 08 23:23:08 <swoolley> sandalle: regular users as such won't be aware of the versions of the grimoire May 08 23:23:16 <swoolley> they can be if they want, but it's not crucial May 08 23:23:17 <sandalle> swoolley: right, they'll just see "stable" May 08 23:23:21 <alley_cat> stable grimoire version, for test an devel that field doesn't make sense anyway May 08 23:23:35 <swoolley> alley_cat: yeah, devel and test are completely unversioned. May 08 23:23:40 <sandalle> swoolley: any more items for QA Team? May 08 23:23:45 <dmlb2000|server> swoolley: I didn't see anything on your list about the cache files??? are they done??? May 08 23:24:00 <alley_cat> the grimoire should probably contain a VERSION file so people filing bugs can file it against the specific version May 08 23:24:03 <swoolley> dmlb2000|server: they are in the prometheus part, but I didn't list it May 08 23:24:12 <dmlb2000|server> swoolley: okay May 08 23:24:25 <afrayedknot|LT> the VERSION file can be added when the branches are cut May 08 23:24:42 <sandalle> since Sorcery and the grimoire won't use the VERSION file for anything May 08 23:25:28 <swoolley> dmlb2000|server: the caches will become more important as sorcery supports more and better binary caches. May 08 23:25:53 <swoolley> dmlb2000|server: and I'm thinking the QA team can provide caches for all basesystem+extras stuff that it tests directly May 08 23:26:07 <swoolley> and then we can farm out various other sections to other trusted invididuals such as yourself May 08 23:26:16 <dmlb2000|server> :) May 08 23:26:20 <dmlb2000|server> that works for me May 08 23:26:21 <swoolley> I think QA team will start with between 100-200 base spells May 08 23:26:28 <swoolley> concentrate on those May 08 23:26:29 <sandalle> do we want to provide caches for anything other than basesystem? May 08 23:26:41 <swoolley> sandalle: not officially at first anyways May 08 23:26:53 <sandalle> swoolley: k May 08 23:27:03 <swoolley> but it would be good to be able to pull really big compiles down from the internet if you just want to try it out and don't want to compile it yourself. May 08 23:27:06 <sandalle> I'd rather we just stick to basesystem, at least in the foreseeable future May 08 23:27:11 <!BearPerson> official caches? The ISO team can help with/use those :) May 08 23:27:42 <sandalle> swoolley: Any other items for QA Team? May 08 23:27:58 <swoolley> not if there aren't anymore questions May 08 23:28:15 <dmlb2000|server> are we done?? May 08 23:28:18 <sandalle> Any questions for swoolley (re QA Team)? May 08 23:28:24 <sandalle> dmlb2000|server: I have a few post-items to bring up May 08 23:28:27 <swoolley> sandalle: basesystem+extras is the target for me, not just basesystem (which is really small) May 08 23:28:44 <sandalle> swoolley: that's basesystem+extras meaning basesystem plus it's optional depends? May 08 23:28:51 <swoolley> plus a few more small things May 08 23:28:56 <sandalle> k May 08 23:29:03 <swoolley> +extras I mean things like mutt w3m irssi that we'll want to be damned sure are working May 08 23:29:16 <sandalle> If no one else has questions for swoolley (re QA Team) then ruskie would like to bring up his games grimoire May 08 23:29:30 <sandalle> and then I have one last item after that May 08 23:29:44 <swoolley> the hidden announcement? May 08 23:29:45 <swoolley> ;) May 08 23:29:53 * abouter would like to take the opportunity to ask for help after that May 08 23:30:09 <sandalle> swoolley: ;) May 08 23:30:17 <sandalle> okay, so 3 items. :) May 08 23:30:39 <sandalle> swoolley: thanks for starting the QA Team and your work on it so far. :) I can't wait for the stabalized stable to be ready. :) May 08 23:30:48 <sandalle> ruskie: you're up for your games grimoire. :) May 08 23:30:50 <swoolley> sandalle: hehe May 08 23:30:52 * ruskie teleports himself to the podium *kzzzzziiittt* May 08 23:31:02 <ruskie> *cough* *cough* May 08 23:31:04 <ruskie> the games grimoire has lost a member SilverSlayer he droped out due to RL stuff. So I'm looking for a second in command for games grimoire. Also I'd like to address the issue of having 270 spells that are very under-maintained so I'd like to ask anyone with interest in any of the games to pickit up and add yourself into the MAINTAINER file of that section as spellname: guruname Also as said before all up-case spells in games-grimoire are being lowercased May 08 23:31:11 <ruskie> ... as I progress with the reorganization(I think one is left atm). Also as some might have noted the games-z-rejected section was moved to the z-rejected grimoire but I still consider it games-grimoire teritory so any bugs would fall into the games-grimoire if someone disagrees then tell me why(I'd love to get rid of that section from games teritory completly). May 08 23:31:58 <ruskie> and in other news games-grimoire reorganization is progressing nicely... May 08 23:32:13 * ruskie waits... May 08 23:32:27 * !BearPerson wonders what got lost after "in games-grimoire are being" May 08 23:32:44 <dufflebunk> ruskie: I missed what you said after: "in gaems-grimoire are being l" May 08 23:32:56 <dmlb2000|server> lowercase == l May 08 23:32:57 <ruskie> hmmm May 08 23:33:03 <ruskie> weird May 08 23:33:10 <dufflebunk> I got the second statement though May 08 23:33:18 <sandalle> ditto May 08 23:33:33 <sandalle> ruskie: a request for help would probably be more appropriate on sm-discuss, though, and get more response. :) May 08 23:33:43 <ruskie> I tried it a couple of times May 08 23:33:44 <ruskie> got 0 May 08 23:33:45 <sandalle> ruskie: though I'd be willing to help with a few games May 08 23:33:51 <sandalle> ruskie: yeah, I recall. :( May 08 23:34:11 <sandalle> ruskie: and I have, but I don't put my name in MAINTAINER as I have other priorities May 08 23:34:36 <ruskie> well it's mostly for the general-gurus and section maintainers May 08 23:35:11 <sandalle> ruskie: k May 08 23:35:34 <sandalle> ruskie: I like that now the only rejected apps are in one grimoire. :) May 08 23:35:51 <ruskie> also I'd like to move edutainment section out of games since it really hasn't any games in them... May 08 23:35:53 <sandalle> ruskie: I'm fine with you modifying the games-z-rejected in there May 08 23:36:10 <sandalle> ruskie: move edutainment to science then? May 08 23:36:16 <sandalle> since edutainment implies games, to me May 08 23:36:27 <ruskie> acctually to their prefered sections May 08 23:36:37 <alley_cat> the stuff in there fits to several sections May 08 23:36:57 <sandalle> okay May 08 23:36:58 <alley_cat> celestia would be good in science, for stuff like gtypist we don't really havea fitting section May 08 23:37:07 <sandalle> ruskie: you'll want to get OK's from the section gurus then. :) May 08 23:37:11 <sandalle> but that sounds fine to me May 08 23:37:13 <ruskie> tuxmath seems to be the only correct spell there May 08 23:37:16 * dmlb2000|server is reminded of the mobile section... May 08 23:37:39 <sandalle> Any more questions/comments for ruskie? May 08 23:38:04 <abouter> most of mobile is network related indeed May 08 23:39:15 <sandalle> If not then I'd like to let abouter bring up his request (if it's appropriate ;)) May 08 23:39:19 * ruskie teleports back to his seat *kzzzzziiittt* May 08 23:39:32 <sandalle> ruskie: thanks for the games update and hopefully you get some more volunteers. :) May 08 23:39:41 <ruskie> :) May 08 23:39:55 * swoolley notices the transporter has blown up in the corner and the transporter containment has lost ruskie to the ether of space. May 08 23:40:32 * alley_cat mourns for ruskie, he was a good guy ''continued on'' ["Meeting log 2005-05-08 part 2"]
Meeting_log_2005-05-08 (last edited 2008-09-22 23:34:46 by localhost)