erics passed project lead to sandalle, voting in new team members was discussed. Alley_cat is a likely candidate for the new grimoire lead. Team meetings will be held more often (grimoire team, sorcery team, etc.). Team leads will try to have bi-monthy meetings and these all hands meetings will be once every two months or more often if needed. A new qa team will be formed. --- Log opened Sun Mar 07 06:13:03 2004 06:13 * erics Welcomes everyone to his last meeting as the official PL (aka "grand poobah") and opens the meeting 06:13 < CuZnDragon> ls 06:13 <@erics> I want to start by saying thank you for a wonderful year and a half of working together while I was lucky enough to be your PL 06:14 <@erics> I have posted a notice to the mailinglists that I wanted to turn over PL to someone new 06:14 <@erics> this is not a new decision, but one I let all current team leads know about a few months ago... 06:15 <@erics> I based this decision on the given reasons; 1.0 should have been released so it was a good time to let a new lead in, I am starting a new job per 1 april and my first baby is on the way (expected in june) 06:16 <@erics> I also put forth (based on pressure from the user/devel community) that we should base our new PL on the current team lead's votes... 06:16 <@erics> so we did discuss who would be appropriate and held a poll... 06:17 <@erics> this was not my decision... this was a group from the lead developers who have to work closely with the PL who made the call... 06:17 <@erics> this seems to us to be the quickest and surest way to ease the transition from one PL to another w/o the drama we had like the abrupt quiting of our previous PL 06:18 <@erics> the decision was unanimous and I think you all will agree.... 06:19 <@erics> We have spent the last month or so getting ready, passing over the passwds, letting ibiblio know, etc.... 06:19 <@erics> he is physically ready, the tools are there in place for his useage, the team leads are ready to serve... 06:20 < CuZnDragon> May not agree with it but may be willing to live with it. 06:20 <@erics> I have taken the time to ready the Staff of Power to pass on, I have removed the patch "Grand PooBah" from my pointy blue wizzards hat and am ready to pin it onto his robes... 06:21 <@erics> Any discussion about the acceptance, voting, etc is for this meeting to sort out.... but, 06:21 <+Bernardo> I am with CuZnDragon, I'd rather follow a more democratic process, but I might be able to live with it 06:21 <@erics> I will now let you know what the choice was.... 06:21 * erics walks over to the row of Team Lead wizzard seats, some empty, some full.... 06:22 * erics walks past iso lead, past porting lead, past the empty sorcery lead.... 06:22 <+rycee> Dammit! 06:22 <+afrayedknot> crap 06:22 * rycee doesn't handle suspense very well 06:22 * afrayedknot realizes it isnt him 06:23 * erics places the patch "Grand PooBah" and Staff of Power onto the ground in front of the ex-Grimoire Lead, Eric Sandall 06:23 * erics awaits his dramatic appearance.... 06:23 <+rycee> Woo! 06:23 * erics and looks expectantly to the crowd, calls for their support for our new PL.... 06:24 < treeve> hail the new emperor 06:24 * erics and bows away gracefully 06:24 * rycee thinks it's a good choice. 06:24 * Bernardo agrees 06:24 <@erics> He was to be here and to now take over the meeting with his own agenda / discussions... so I will leave it for what it is until he shows up as i cannot stay long 06:24 <+Worf> the king is dead, long live the king! 06:25 <+Bernardo> Caesar is dead, all hail Caesar! 06:25 <+rycee> Who takes over grimoire lead now? 06:25 * Oadae thinks it would have been nice for the new leader to be here. 06:25 <+alley_cat> that will be voted on by grimoire gurus 06:25 * afrayedknot agrees with Oadae 06:25 <@erics> I feel personally that he has marched the same route as I did to get to PL, and has the support and charisma to get the things done that need doing if we are EVER to make a 1.0 release.... I will follow where he leads... 06:25 <+rycee> alley_cat: Alright. 06:26 <+alley_cat> it was planned that i'd take over that position, but i think we should vote on it 06:27 <+rycee> Hah, I know the team pretty well. I knew sandalle would take PL and I was quite sure alley_cat would get grimoire lead :) 06:27 <+afrayedknot> since we are on the topic of voting, what should be our avenue of voting? the email method has shown to be fairly unreliable 06:27 <@erics> ok, I would like to put this to you all as ex-PL, I think a bit of waiting for Eric Sandall is in order, if he shows carry on... otherwise post this meeting as a pre to his arrival and continue logging at that moment? 06:27 <+Worf> everybody talks about votes - are there options? 06:28 <+rycee> I think the email voting was done in the wrong way. 06:28 <@erics> I will be moving on now, I can't hang out and will read the meeting log tommorrow... 06:28 <+rycee> It's better to assign a vote officer which tallies the votes. 06:28 <+Oadae> Bye, erics. 06:28 < CuZnDragon> Later and thanks erics 06:28 <+alley_cat> email voting is ok imo, but it should just be an email with your vote, then have a person that collects all those emails and tallies the votes 06:28 < qnr> bye erics 06:28 <+Bernardo> bye erics - its a bit sad to see you leave PL 06:28 <+rycee> People then just mail their vote without considering any previous vote. 06:28 <+afrayedknot> bye erics 06:29 <+Oadae> Thanks fot all the hard work up to now, erics. 06:29 <+low> bye and thx erics 06:29 <+rycee> Just put +-1, +-0 in a mail and send to sm-admin 06:29 <+alley_cat> rycee: agreed 06:29 <+rycee> erics: Good job mate :) 06:29 <@erics> chow all, take care... see you on irc soon, I am not gone for good so don't add me to the graveyard page just yet... 06:30 < ruskie> bye 06:30 <+afrayedknot> i was thinking that having a special bugzilla area and voting in the comments would work well too, then we could have it relate directly to bugs 06:30 <+Oadae> :^) 06:30 <+rycee> I also think that +-1 votes should be accompanied by a motivation (doesn't have to be very long) 06:30 <@erics> also, I will clean out the roadmap tomorrow if I get the chance, will be to-be-announced by new PL, whatever you all decide.... 06:30 <@erics> chow... 06:30 <+rycee> Well, doesn't bugzilla handle voting related to specific bugs already? 06:30 <+afrayedknot> not the same way 06:30 -!- erics [~erics@loki.cs.kun.nl] has quit ["leaving"] 06:31 <+afrayedknot> you get some number of votes, and if you use them all you are stuck 06:31 <+afrayedknot> we have out -0 0 1 and +1 system 06:31 <+afrayedknot> s/out/our/ 06:31 <+rycee> Ah, ok. 06:31 <+afrayedknot> i think bugzilla would make it less error prone 06:32 < ruskie> what about having someone to handle the voting beaurcracy? 06:32 <+afrayedknot> i agree 06:32 < CuZnDragon> Thought it was -1 -0 +0 +1 *shrugs* 06:32 <+afrayedknot> at the 'end' of voting some specied person (sandalle?) should tally 06:32 <+afrayedknot> CuZnDragon: you're right 06:32 * alley_cat doesn't understand -0 +0 06:33 <+afrayedknot> +0 means i like it but im not helping 06:33 < CuZnDragon> -0 = Don't care but can't help +0 = Don't care but willing to help 06:33 < treeve> I ws confused by the last vote, as I only saw the middle of the voting system, not the initial setup 06:34 <+afrayedknot> CuZnDragon: thats backwards 06:34 <+Bernardo> I was using +0 pro, but can't help, -0 as against, but can't help 06:34 <+afrayedknot> 0 means not doing work (regardless of sign) 1 means doing work (or working on alternative depending on sign) 06:34 <+rycee> http://incubator.apache.org/learn/voting.html 06:35 < ruskie> might I suggest having a single user collect all the votes and also setup the vote in the first place and also give the results about voting? 06:36 <+Worf> i agree with ruskie, as long as one is willing to collect the votes. 06:36 < ruskie> well I am 06:36 < ruskie> I like doing such things... 06:36 <+Worf> uh - one i trust i mean... :) 06:36 * ruskie loves the beaurocratic process(to some extent) 06:37 <+rycee> Let team leaders be able to initiate vote. 06:37 * alley_cat pins a "Beaurocrat Rank 37" on ruskies chest 06:37 <+Bernardo> well, since the voting is public, anyone can check later if the votes were tallied correctly... we're not using diebold machines here 06:37 <+rycee> Then have a specific person tally them as people vote and after a specific time period report the result. 06:37 <+afrayedknot> hence why i want to use bugzilla to keep it all 06:38 <+Worf> why are we actually talking that much about voting? democracy doesn't work that well anyway :) 06:39 <+afrayedknot> because our new leader isn't here and i wanted some justification for getting up before my bedtime 06:40 * qnr grits his teeth and avoids making any SCOTUS comments 06:41 * afrayedknot doesnt want to know what a 'SCOTUS comment' is 06:41 * Worf doesn't know either, but doubts there is honor in it 06:42 * Bernardo hopes that sandalle doesn't think the meeting is at 1800GMT 06:42 < qnr> Supreme Court of the United States 06:42 -!- _ruskie [~ruskie@clj7-23.dial-up.arnes.si] has joined #smgl-admin 06:42 -!- ruskie [~ruskie@clj7-23.dial-up.arnes.si] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:42 <+afrayedknot> someone want to email him? 06:43 <+alley_cat> he's not online in jabber either 06:43 -!- _ruskie is now known as ruskie 06:43 <+Bernardo> anyone got his cell phone number? a sms might reach him faster than an email, if he isn't online... 06:43 < qnr> and emails tend not to ring and catch your attention 06:44 <+afrayedknot> except for when you're cell phone checks email for you 06:44 < qnr> valid point 06:44 <+afrayedknot> but thats a rare case 06:45 < qnr> well, since he's he leader now, maybe he's emulating Bush and taking a vacation? 06:45 < qnr> ok, ok, I'll shut up 06:46 * rycee goes to #smgl-newbie and plays trivia 06:46 < ruskie> so I guess I am not trusted by some to do the voting stuff? 06:47 <+afrayedknot> if you join the team you will be 06:47 < ruskie> yeah not a problem but if you wouldn't mind I could join only as the voting wizard? 06:47 < qnr> so someone tell me... 06:48 * afrayedknot anticipates a big important question 06:48 < qnr> if I am listed on the team page, was I supposed to vote for that delaying 1.0 etc. --- because I'm not a developer -- but don't want to shirk civil duties 06:49 < qnr> nah, not big and important, just small and niggling 06:49 <+afrayedknot> i think the vote was pretty much unanimous 06:49 <+afrayedknot> however you spell that word... 06:51 -!- sandalle [~sandalle@dslb138.fsr.net] has joined #smgl-admin 06:51 -!- mode/#smgl-admin [+o sandalle] by ChanServ 06:51 * afrayedknot applauds 06:51 <+afrayedknot> our (new) fearless leader!! 06:51 * ruskie applauds 06:51 * afrayedknot ushers sandalle up to the podium 06:51 <+afrayedknot> you've got a meeting to run! 06:51 * Worf raises a goblet 06:52 <+low> howdy big boss 06:52 <+Bernardo> all hail Caesar! 06:52 * sandalle kicks his alarm 06:52 <@sandalle> Stupid alarm failed me. :( 06:52 <@sandalle> Sorry guys 06:52 <@sandalle> did the meeting already get over? 06:52 * qnr sees "fearless leader" and "ruskie" and thinks of Bullwinkle and Boris Badenov 06:52 <+afrayedknot> its okay 06:52 * alley_cat mumbles in his beard and sparkles fly around sandalles feet 06:52 < qnr> we were waiting for you 06:52 <+afrayedknot> erics came, left you the staff of power then promptly departed 06:53 <@sandalle> heh, that was quick then. ;) 06:53 <@sandalle> Again, sorry I'm late 06:53 <@sandalle> Well then, I'd like to call this meeting to order. 06:53 <+Worf> a wizard is never late. he appears precicely when he intends to! 06:54 <@sandalle> First thing on the plate, who here wants this short? 06:54 <+low> Worf, lol 06:54 * sandalle pats Worf 06:54 < ruskie> :)) 06:55 <+Oadae> I'll have to leave soon. 06:55 <+afrayedknot> i want meetings later in the day 06:55 <+low> must leave guys sorry 06:55 <+afrayedknot> 6am is annoying 06:56 <@sandalle> low thanks for showing up, better than I did. ;) 06:56 <@sandalle> Oadae: I'll make this quick then 06:56 <+Oadae> It's going to be at 6 am for someone in the world. 06:56 <@sandalle> afrayedknot: Agreed, but there's going to be no good time for anyone 06:56 -!- mode/#smgl-admin [+v lace] by sandalle 06:56 -!- mode/#smgl-admin [+v qnr] by sandalle 06:56 -!- mode/#smgl-admin [+v ruskie] by sandalle 06:56 -!- mode/#smgl-admin [+v treeve] by sandalle 06:56 -!- mode/#smgl-admin [+v CuZnDragon] by sandalle 06:56 -!- mode/#smgl-admin [+v basvg] by sandalle 06:57 <@sandalle> So, since it seems we're in a pinch since I'm late, I'll make this quick. ;) 06:57 <+Bernardo> bye low 06:57 <@sandalle> afrayedknot: Has been appointed our Grimoire Lead and will be taking over my old post. 06:57 * sandalle applauds 06:57 <+Bernardo> clap clap! 06:58 <+afrayedknot> uh 06:58 <+Oadae> afrayedknot, or alley_cat? 06:58 <@sandalle> der 06:58 <+ruskie> *clap* *clap* 06:58 <@sandalle> alley_cat: 06:58 <@sandalle> I just hit "a" and TAB 06:58 <@sandalle> sorry 06:58 <+alley_cat> :P 06:58 * afrayedknot runs screaming out of the meeting room 06:58 <@sandalle> afrayedknot: I made you Sorcery Lead, sorry. ;) 06:59 <+afrayedknot> uh 06:59 <@sandalle> So, to make this better, Arwed von Merkatz (alley_cat) is our new Grimoire Lead 06:59 <@sandalle> afrayedknot: joking. :) 06:59 <+ruskie> *clap* *clap* 06:59 <+afrayedknot> oh good 06:59 * sandalle applauds 06:59 * Oadae joins sandalle 06:59 <@sandalle> afrayedknot: Did you have an assistant in mind? 06:59 <+afrayedknot> for? 06:59 <+qnr> does alley_cat get a raise? 07:00 <+Oadae> Only if he buys platform shoes. 07:00 * sandalle starts typing out the rest of the name instead of using TAB 07:00 <@sandalle> alley_cat: Do you have an assistant in mind? 07:00 <+qnr> 1.5*0 07:00 * alley_cat already has platform shoes 07:00 <+alley_cat> ;) 07:00 <@sandalle> afrayedknot: sorry about that. ;) 07:00 -!- You're now known as knot_here 07:00 <+knot_here> there 07:00 <+Worf> that will help 07:00 <+knot_here> im now not aTAB 07:01 <+alley_cat> i was thinking of rycee if he wants the job 07:01 <+alley_cat> we'd need cvs or svn setup though, as rycee doesn't want to use p4 07:01 <@sandalle> alley_cat: He'd be a good assist, though he does not use Perforce. That would make our P4<->CVS sync a little more important 07:01 <+rycee> I would like to do that but I don't know how well that would work since I don't use p3 07:01 <@sandalle> ;) 07:01 <+rycee> Uh, yeah. 07:02 <+Oadae> Then it should be rycee's job to get the cross-synronization working? 07:02 <+alley_cat> svn would be better imo as that maps much better to p4, with changesets and stuff 07:02 <@sandalle> rycee: If you're up for it, the p4 problem isn't that big, you can still submit patches, talk to people, bug me, etc. ;) 07:03 <+knot_here> i would rather see svn than cvs 07:03 <@sandalle> alley_cat: Joost was working on adding SVN to the machine, I'll talk to him about his ETA 07:03 <@sandalle> Oadae: Tony said he'd work on it as soon as Joost sets up his account 07:03 <+Worf> i would like to try svn too! 07:03 <+rycee> I would prefer subversion over cvs 07:03 <+alley_cat> sandalle: that would be great, cvs would be quite problematic to map moves and renames, which we do quite a lot in p4 07:04 <@sandalle> alley_cat: I know, I've been working with our CVS repo to get it up-to-date, it's a pain. ;) 07:04 <@sandalle> Okay, so we're going to use SVN instead of CVS and I'll talk to Joost about getting that setup. 07:04 <+rycee> Anyway, if you think it would work well then I don't mind being assistant grimoire dude. 07:04 <@sandalle> Any nays? 07:04 <+Oadae> Would Joost put svn on instead of cvs? 07:04 <@sandalle> Oadae: He was putting SVN on other machines at the place and said he wouldn't mind adding one more to the list 07:05 <@sandalle> Oadae: though I didn't get a timeline on when that was going, just a vague "soon", but that was a few months ago 07:05 <+Oadae> OK. 07:05 <@sandalle> No nays on the SVN, that's settled then. ;) 07:06 <@sandalle> errr...just had a thought, is anyone logging? 07:06 <+Oadae> I personally don't care either way. I'll have to learn either of them to use them. 07:06 <+Oadae> sandalle, yes. 07:06 <@sandalle> Oadae: Thanks. Could you post the log when we're done? 07:06 <+alley_cat> svn is quite easy, and there's always frontends like rapidsvn 07:06 <+knot_here> im logging also 07:06 <+Oadae> sandalle, oh, I'm not logging, but someone is. 07:06 <+qnr> oh great... now I'll be an RCS mind in an SVN world 07:06 <@sandalle> Okay, and rycee has accepted alley_cat's nomination for Assistant Grimoire Lead 07:06 <@sandalle> Any nays? 07:07 <@sandalle> Oadae: Heh. ;) 07:07 <@sandalle> knot_here: Could you put that on the wiki when we're done? ;) 07:07 <+Oadae> No nay here. 07:07 <+knot_here> yes 07:07 <+treeve> fine by me 07:07 <+CuZnDragon> I'm logging also. 07:07 <+CuZnDragon> Ok here as well 07:08 <+knot_here> fine by me 07:08 <@sandalle> Good, so rycee is our new Assistant Grimoire Lead. ;) 07:08 <+rycee> Wee 07:08 <+Worf> can i get a assistant too? 07:08 <@sandalle> Schabell said that he'd hold up Sorcery Lead until I can find a replacement as he won't have much time for it after this month. 07:08 <@sandalle> Any nominations for that post? 07:09 <+qnr> knot_here, just to see him quiver with fear 07:09 * Oadae nominates knot_here 07:09 * knot_here hides 07:09 * sandalle laughs 07:09 <+Oadae> :^) 07:09 <+knot_here> ;) 07:09 <+rycee> There are to few who work on Sorcery. 07:09 <@sandalle> rycee: agreed. :( 07:09 <+rycee> I think it'll have to be dufflebunk or possibly sorrow 07:09 <+knot_here> if no one else will do it, i will 07:10 <+knot_here> dufflebunk doesnt want to do it 07:10 <+alley_cat> dufflebunk doesn't want to be lead 07:10 <+knot_here> and sorrow already did it (i think) 07:10 <@sandalle> knot_here: Well, I'd like someone who wants to do it, not someone who'll fill the shoes because they need filling, but I'll keep you in mind. ;) 07:10 <+rycee> Yeah : 07:10 <@sandalle> yeah, sorrow already resigned due to time constraints 07:11 <+Worf> speaking of positions - what would you guys say if i would like to try myself working on iso stuff? 07:12 <@sandalle> Worf: That'd be great! 07:12 <+knot_here> i agree 07:12 <+Oadae> Who's going to do the kernel stuff? 07:12 <@sandalle> Worf: You and Hamish have been working on it lately 07:12 <@sandalle> Worf: And if Hamish decides to leave after he's done, we'll need an ISO Lead. 07:13 <@sandalle> So, putting aside the Sorcery Lead or a bit, Worf has been nominated for ISO Lead. 07:13 <@sandalle> Any nays? 07:14 <@sandalle> Any other nominees? 07:15 <+Worf> well - i wouldn't rush things right now... i'm interested in new challenges, but i need to find out how well i can do iso work. 07:15 <@sandalle> Worf: Is it all right if you're pending ISO Lead if Hamish steps down, and Assistant otherwise? 07:16 <+Worf> "lead" sounds a bit frightening, but i think it's ok :) 07:16 <+ruskie> *clap* *clap* 07:17 <@sandalle> Okay then, since there were no nays, Worf is up for IL or AIL. ;) 07:17 <+ruskie> cheers!!! 07:17 * sandalle applauds 07:18 * knot_here claps 07:18 <+qnr> PIL and AIL go together better, medically [random thought] 07:18 <+ruskie> lol 07:18 <+Worf> this would be a good moment to find some assistants for kernels section 07:18 <@sandalle> Worf: Good idea 07:18 * ruskie sees Worf equipied with his best staff and in a hunting outfit.... 07:18 * Bernardo thinks he would volunteer - but he really has no time now 07:18 <@sandalle> Anyone up for helping out in the kernels section? ;) 07:19 <+Bernardo> if you don't mind, I can do some random updates on the spells/patches when I have the time 07:19 * ruskie is only capable of paperpushing and voting management... 07:20 <@sandalle> Okay, so another one for the backburner, eh? 07:21 <+CuZnDragon> *grin* 07:21 <@sandalle> So Sorcery Lead and assistants to kernels section need a little more advertisement. ;) 07:21 <@sandalle> On to voting 07:21 <+qnr> way above my level ... when all the lead talk is finished though, I'd like to know if there is anything like "assistant grimoire guru" where you get on the mailing lists and whatnot - I'll volunteer for doc, but my inet connection could drop at any time, so I'd rather not be "the guru" 07:22 <+Worf> sandalle: yep. because i do know that my time won't do for both kernels section and working on iso 07:22 <@sandalle> How do people feel about me being put into my spot without a vote? Same with Arwed? Are votes necessary? Should we setup a vote or go as is, and vote next time? Do we need to vote next time or do it this way again? 07:23 <+qnr> I vote for vote next time 07:23 <+CuZnDragon> I'm will to go on as it but have a voting system in place for next time. 07:23 <@sandalle> Worf: I'll try to find someone. ;) 07:23 <+CuZnDragon> s/it/is 07:23 * alley_cat agrees with qnr 07:23 <@sandalle> qnr: I'll get to the extra gurus after this 07:23 <+CuZnDragon> s/will/willing as well 07:24 * Bernardo feels like a confidence vote might help 07:24 <+ruskie> CuZnDragon, would the voting system I proposed be good for ya? 07:24 <+rycee> qnr: To sign up for the lists just go to http://www.sourcemage.org/resources/lists/ and use the forms to subscribe. 07:25 <+qnr> rycee: I mean the the list the wiki says is there to notify you of updated versions of spells in the section 07:25 <@sandalle> ruskie: Could you give a quick overview of which voting system that is? 07:25 <+rycee> qnr: I think the sm-spell-submit list is used for that now but I've never recieved any mails on it for a long time. 07:25 <+ruskie> to have a voting officer handle all the voting from start to finish... 07:25 <@sandalle> qnr: That list is still being setup, IIRC 07:26 <+qnr> oh, ok 07:26 <+rycee> qnr: I've got a user on freshmeat which gets mail for all the spells in the net section though. 07:26 <+ruskie> i.e. he sends the vote to all the ppl and then gathers the votes as they come on and then announces the results... 07:26 <+ruskie> s/on/in 07:26 <+Oadae> rycee, qnr that's still in process. 07:26 <+rycee> Oadae: ok. 07:27 <+qnr> yes, I've subscribed to about 25% of the doc ones 07:27 <+Oadae> But soon. 07:27 <@sandalle> ruskie: Sounds fine with me. 07:27 <@sandalle> Any objections to rycee's voting mechanism? ;) 07:27 <+ruskie> lol 07:27 <+qnr> no from me 07:27 <+ruskie> sandalle, you really should type the first 2 chars of a nick 07:28 * sandalle sighs 07:28 <@sandalle> ruskie: TAB isn't liking me today, sorry. ;) 07:28 * Oadae agrees w/ ruskie 07:28 <+qnr> though I think there should be periodic updates if the vote is going to last more than 48 hours or so 07:28 <@sandalle> Any objections to ruskie voting mechanism? 07:28 <+CuZnDragon> Most any voting system would work for me just as long as everyone understands it and agrees to it. 07:29 <@sandalle> qnr: Well, you can't say "Person X is winning with blah votes" /during/ the vote, that'd be undemocratic! ;) 07:29 <+Worf> i'm fine with anything as long as there is some short description on "how to vote" when the vote starts 07:29 <+ruskie> would you want me on the team as the voting/paperpushing wizard? 07:29 <+alley_cat> ruskie: Beaurocracy Lead :) 07:29 <@sandalle> ruskie: I was thinking a more general guru, but was going to bring that up later. ;) 07:29 <+qnr> that's a point, but how is it different then the polls on news.sourcemage.org or the current way off updating with each vote cast? 07:29 <+ruskie> alley_cat, I haven't a problem with that 07:30 <@sandalle> Okay, so it seems we're agreed that Lead postions (only, yes?) should be filled by votes only. 07:30 <@sandalle> qnr: True, but this is a "vote", not a "poll". ;) 07:30 <+Bernardo> sandalle: yes 07:30 <@sandalle> qnr: A poll just guides us, a vote would be binding 07:30 <+qnr> yeah, but the hold off on the ISO was a vote :) 07:31 <@sandalle> qnr: :P 07:31 <@sandalle> ;) 07:31 <+qnr> but I don't care, I don't need updates, as long as (if I were to vote) I got physical confirmation that my vote was tallied 07:31 <+CuZnDragon> sandalle: yes 07:31 <@sandalle> qnr: That's a good idea 07:32 <+Oadae> OK, time for me to go. I'll check on the rest of the meeting later. 07:32 <+qnr> bye Oadae 07:32 <+ruskie> bye 07:32 -!- Oadae is now known as Oadae-away 07:32 <+Worf> speaking of beaurocracy - we do have mailing lists, we do have forums... could one imagine a single system with both web, mailing list, and newsserver access? (but maybe this is too much to ask for right now) 07:32 <@sandalle> Oadae-away: Thanks for showing. ;) 07:33 <@sandalle> So, All Lead positions have to be given by a vote. Ruskie volunteered to be the vote person (Beaurocr 07:33 <@sandalle> acy Lead). What he does is post the vote to the ML, then people reply back to him only (not the list) with their vote. He responds that he got the vote and at the end of the allotted time posts 07:33 <@sandalle> the results. 07:33 <@sandalle> Worf: It'd be nice to have it all integrated. Do you have a system in mind that does that? Let's talk about it after this topic. ;) 07:33 <+knot_here> why dont we just have it in bugzilla? 07:34 <+knot_here> we can make a component and controll access to it 07:34 <@sandalle> knot_here: The vote? It wouldn't be anonymous then... 07:34 <+knot_here> wait is this for all voting or just leads? 07:34 <@sandalle> But then we'd have an external record instead of an e-mail trail (not to say that ruskie isn't trustworthy. ;)) 07:34 <@sandalle> voting for leads 07:35 <+knot_here> nm then 07:35 <+knot_here> i think the other voting should be public and recorded in as many ways possible 07:35 <@sandalle> Any nays to the Beaurocracy Lead idea? 07:35 <@sandalle> knot_here: Agreed 07:35 <+CuZnDragon> sandalle: No problem here. 07:35 <+qnr> perhaps that might be a sorcery addition in the distant future? 07:36 <+knot_here> not that i dont trust ruskie, id just rather have someone who has been on the team longer do it 07:36 <+knot_here> (nay) 07:36 <+rycee> I think the voting process needs to be documented in some detail with majority ratios, vetoes and different types of votes. 07:37 <@sandalle> I was going to recommend that the Project Lead do the voting instead of a new position. Does that sound better? 07:37 <@sandalle> rycee: Agreed. 07:37 <@sandalle> rycee: We'll get to that in a sec after this. 07:37 <+knot_here> i like PL doing it better 07:37 <@sandalle> ruskie: That okay with you? ;) 07:37 <@sandalle> knot_here: As do I 07:37 <+ruskie> not a prob 07:37 <+ruskie> as long as it's okay with you 07:38 <@sandalle> The PL has been doing it for a while anyways, so it was in my task list already. ;) 07:39 <+ruskie> imho PL has more important duties 07:39 <@sandalle> Okay, so the PL will send out vote requests, people will respond to him (not the list), he will confirm their entry, and at the end of the allotted time will post the results (this is for Lead positions only) 07:39 <@sandalle> ruskie: True, but this isn't that much work and this kind of vote comes once a year 07:39 <@sandalle> Any nays? 07:39 <+qnr> there are plenty of other bureaucratic things to get involved with, don't worry :) 07:39 <+ruskie> well lemme know if you need a beurocracy lead anywhere 07:40 <@sandalle> ruskie: Will do. :) 07:41 <@sandalle> Okay then, sounds like that's how we'll vote for Leads. Now, should we have a vote on the current Lead positions setup, or leave as is? 07:41 * rycee thinks leave as is. 07:41 <+qnr> I say as is 07:41 <+treeve> as is 07:41 * Worf allready lost track on what we agreed on 07:41 <+qnr> but then I don't think I can vote on leads 07:42 <@sandalle> qnr: hmmm, good point, I'll get to that in a bit as well. ;) 07:42 <@sandalle> qnr: Heh. :) 07:42 <+CuZnDragon> As is is fine with me. 07:43 <@sandalle> Sounds like we have a vote setup for next time, then, and this time we're going to be as is. Keeps things simple. ;) 07:44 <@sandalle> Okay, so who should be able to vote for a Lead? Only developers? Developers and Users? 07:44 <@sandalle> Only developers and long-time users? 07:44 <+ruskie> define long-time users? 07:44 <+qnr> and what is a developer darnit... 07:44 <+ruskie> and how to check the validity of being a long-time user 07:45 <+alley_cat> only developers 07:45 <+Worf> sounds like there is need for gpg signing parties 07:45 <@sandalle> Developers are people who work on SMGL, fixing bugs in the grimoire, Sorcery, etc. Ones on the wiki. ;) 07:45 * qnr puts "user" on the xplanent markers even though he fixes bugs with p4 etc 07:45 <@sandalle> Long-time user would be difficult to figure out 07:46 <+qnr> ok, so I'm a developer then, even though I don't develop anything... gotcha 07:46 <@sandalle> qnr: You're a developer 07:46 <@sandalle> And the wiki isn't definative; it doesn't list the general gurus 07:46 <+ruskie> and I am not(since I'm nowhere on the team) 07:47 <@sandalle> ruskie: Well, I'd like you to be a general guru, if you'd be willing. ;) 07:47 <+knot_here> the wiki org chart is pretty stale IMO 07:47 <+ruskie> what's thwta? 07:47 <+ruskie> s/thwta/what 07:47 <+knot_here> there are a number of spots that are listed as filled but the people dont appear to be active 07:47 <@sandalle> Okay, so it sounds like we'll allow only developers to vote for Leads 07:47 <@sandalle> knot_here: True, our Web/Tome Team has been busy with RL. :( 07:49 <+knot_here> so moving right along (short meeting?) 07:49 <@sandalle> Now, to rycee's question, how do votes win? 07:49 <@sandalle> knot_here: Trying. ;) 07:49 <@sandalle> What's the majority for a Lead to win? 07:49 <@sandalle> 75%? 07:49 <+knot_here> simple 07:49 <@sandalle> Is there a quorum to meet? 07:49 <+knot_here> its just been two hours of meeting 07:49 <+knot_here> (dont mind me) 07:50 <@sandalle> knot_here: My fault, sorry. :( 07:50 <+alley_cat> i'd suggest 2/3 majority for lead votes 07:50 <@sandalle> Shall we say that 75% of the developers have to vote for it to be valid? Can we ever get that many to vote? 07:50 <+rycee> I'd say. At least 50% of the people should vote on "important" issues and 75% majority wins. 07:50 <@sandalle> I'm for 75% to win as well. 07:51 * knot_here ayes 07:51 <@sandalle> rycee: 50% isn't a good turnout, but it's probably more realistic 07:51 <+ruskie> :)) 07:51 <@sandalle> So, Lead votes need 50% of the developers to vote for it to be valid, and a win is 75% majority. Any nays? 07:52 <+alley_cat> 50% isn't enough imo 07:52 <+lace> 50% from ... ? how many developers do we have ? 07:52 <@sandalle> alley_cat: agreed, but it's more realistic 07:52 <@sandalle> lace: We have ~20 registered, I believe 07:52 <+alley_cat> make that 2/3 of the developers have to vote, with 75% majority, that would make it 50% of the developers agreed at minimum 07:52 * sandalle hasn't actually counted 07:52 <+lace> who is developer ? who has p4 account ? 07:52 <+CuZnDragon> How many voted in the last several votes? 07:52 <+rycee> I also propose a 72 hour voting period or possibly 96. 07:52 <@sandalle> heh, 46 according to p4 07:53 <@sandalle> CuZnDragon: Only about 8 or so 07:53 <+knot_here> how many of those are active? 07:53 <@sandalle> knot_here: About 15, I'd say 07:53 <+qnr> I would have, but as shown earlier, I wasn't certain whether I should 07:53 <@sandalle> knot_here: Some of those accounts are admin accounts 07:53 <+lace> so we have never will have 75% 07:53 <@sandalle> qnr: We enjoy feedback. :) 07:53 <@sandalle> rycee: I like 72 07:54 <@sandalle> Quick jump. Any nays for 72 hours limit on voting? 07:55 <+ruskie> yay 07:55 <+CuZnDragon> sounds reasonable 07:55 <+treeve> ok, it keeps things moving 07:55 <+qnr> if it is once a year, why not send an email specifically to each developer, having them reply with their vote, so it doesn't get lost in the mailing list? 07:55 <+lace> and I think active users could choose their king too, not only developers 07:55 <+lace> some users are more active as some develoopers 07:56 <@sandalle> lace: but the users don't always see who's doig what and so may not know who they're voting in. ;) 07:56 <@sandalle> lace: True... 07:56 <@sandalle> qnr: Not a bad idea 07:56 <@sandalle> qnr: But then you have the problem of leaving someone out. 07:56 <+qnr> true 07:56 <@sandalle> Okay, back to the majority voting Q. 07:56 <@sandalle> qnr: But I like that idea, more in a bit 07:56 <@sandalle> simple or 75%? 07:57 <@sandalle> I think 75% would be best, yet simple is more realistic given past performances 07:57 <+knot_here> 75% 07:57 <+treeve> 60% 07:58 <+ruskie> 2/3 if I may say 07:58 <+alley_cat> 66% of the developers have to vote, with 75% of the cast votes needed 07:58 <+alley_cat> that makes the result agreed by at least 50% of the developers, which is a good ratio imo 07:58 <@sandalle> alley_cat: Might be a good layout 07:59 <@sandalle> Alright, who's for alley_cat's proposal? Any nays? 07:59 <+lace> 50% of the active developers or of the all developers ? 07:59 <@sandalle> since we can't agree between simple or 75%. ;) 07:59 <+knot_here> i agree with alley_cat 07:59 <@sandalle> lace: Hrmm....I'd say active developers, but then how do we define "active"? 08:00 <+CuZnDragon> If that is the case just have it set to 50% of the developers to win. Then as long as 50% vote yes it's good. 08:00 <+lace> how many p4 change he did last month ? 08:00 <+treeve> last 2 months, to allow for absences 08:00 <@sandalle> but not everyone uses P4 08:01 <@sandalle> Our Web/Tome team won't, and a few of our developers don't like P4 08:01 <+knot_here> why dont we just fix the org chart to reflect reality 08:01 <@sandalle> knot_here: Volunteering? ;) 08:01 <+Worf> i think this all is subjective - don't try to create rules for everything. 08:01 <+knot_here> if i did it would be a pretty small org chart when i was done 08:01 * ruskie thinks that's a beurocracy job like thing... 08:02 * ruskie hates spelling that long word... 08:02 <+Worf> sandalle or leads shall decide when one is inactive 08:02 <@sandalle> okay, for now, let's just say developers and plan in the future to prune the list to those whom we deam active. 08:02 <+lace> agree with worf, it is a job of PL 08:02 <@sandalle> Any nays? 08:02 <@sandalle> lace: Agreed 08:02 <+CuZnDragon> Nays to which? 08:02 <@sandalle> heh, sorry 08:03 <+qnr> a monthly message on sm-admin? reply... if you've replied to any within the last 3 months, you're active? Just throwing out ideas 08:03 <@sandalle> Nays to all developers can vote (with the catch that we prune the list to those whom the PL deems active) 08:03 <@sandalle> qnr: I used to e-mail the ones I haven't seen directly and wait for a reply 08:04 <+CuZnDragon> Good to me. 08:04 <@sandalle> With no nays, voting for leads shall be done only by developers (with the list of developers being pruned to "active" ones). 08:04 <@sandalle> Now, back to the majority, was that no "nays" on using alley_cat's idea? 08:05 <+ruskie> I think so... 08:05 <+rycee> With the per centages? 08:05 <@sandalle> With 66% need to vote and a win is 75% of the votes 08:05 <+CuZnDragon> Just my suggestion of making it simple of 50% of developers have to vote yes to win. 08:05 <+rycee> Yes, that's good. 08:06 <+CuZnDragon> Then as long as 50% vote and all vote yes it's good. 08:06 <@sandalle> CuZnDragon: We need to take into account people not voting and several voting different ways 08:06 <@sandalle> CuZnDragon: Plus 50% voting isn't a good way to base our leadership on. ;) 08:07 <+CuZnDragon> You would have the same problem of the 66% votes and 75% to win. 08:07 <@sandalle> but then a win would mean 50% of the people voted for the person 08:07 <@sandalle> whereas the other way (50% voted, 75% for) would be 37% voted for the person (round abouts) 08:07 <+CuZnDragon> That is what I was saying. Just set it they have to have 50% of the developers vote yes for them. 08:07 <+knot_here> i cant imagine any of our elections being that close to begin with 08:08 <+knot_here> usually its just one person 08:08 <@sandalle> knot_here: Usually. ;) 08:08 <@sandalle> knot_here: But it'd be nice to have it down for the future 08:08 <+CuZnDragon> Then as long as 50% voted and they all voted yes you would have a good vote. 08:08 <@sandalle> CuZnDragon: So you want a unanimous vote? 08:08 <+CuZnDragon> No. 08:09 <+CuZnDragon> Just simplifing the 66% voting and 75% to win. 08:09 <@sandalle> Well, it looks we're agreed on 2/3 as the majority. ;) 08:10 <@sandalle> So the Lead has to win by 2/3. 08:10 <@sandalle> Now we just need to figure out our quorum 08:10 <@sandalle> The two main options are 50% and 66% 08:10 <+CuZnDragon> That wasn't my point. 08:10 <@sandalle> I must be missing it then... 08:11 <+qnr> 2/3 need to vote, within the 2/3, 3/4 need to agree 08:11 <@sandalle> geh, replace my 2/3 with 3/4 08:11 <+CuZnDragon> and that was put so that at least 50% of the developer agree right? 08:11 <+qnr> right 08:12 <+alley_cat> yes 08:12 <+CuZnDragon> so just set it so that you have to have over 50% of the developers have to say yes for it to be good. 08:12 <+CuZnDragon> then as long as over 50% vote.... 08:12 <+alley_cat> that'd work too 08:13 <@sandalle> okay, so you're saying get rid of our other ratios and just say what they were meaning? ;) 08:13 <+CuZnDragon> Yes... 08:13 <@sandalle> where we want the Lead that winds to have 50% of the votes of all developers (whether they voted or not)? 08:14 <@sandalle> Any nays on the 50% idea from CuZnDragon? 08:14 <+qnr> right, keeping in mind that if 50% of the developers voted, it would have to be unanimous for the idea 08:14 <@sandalle> yep 08:15 <@sandalle> but that way at least half of the people (and 100% of the really active ones) would want him/her in. ;) 08:15 <+CuZnDragon> Yes. 08:16 <@sandalle> Any nays? 08:16 <+CuZnDragon> Or you can go 51% if you actually want a majority. 08:16 <+ruskie> 51% 08:16 <@sandalle> simple majority then? 08:17 <@sandalle> Any nays to a simple majority from all developers? 08:17 <+CuZnDragon> Works for me as long as you get the 51% actually voting and voting unanimously. 08:18 <@sandalle> CuZnDragon: as the bare minimum, yes. :) 08:19 <@sandalle> Without any nays, CuZnDragon's idea has it. ;) 08:19 <@sandalle> Next (we're getting there!): General Gurus 08:19 <+ruskie> what does a general guru do? 08:19 <@sandalle> Should these be listed on the org chart? 08:19 <+rycee> Yes 08:19 <+qnr> yes 08:20 <+alley_cat> yes 08:20 <@sandalle> ruskie: They work wherever they can in the grimoire (or wherever they want) and are not assigned a section or team 08:20 <+CuZnDragon> I would say yes. 08:20 <@sandalle> It's mostly a section for those without enought time to dedicate to a whole section, or don't feel up to it, but still want to help 08:20 <+ruskie> then I would ne one sure... I like to help wherever I can... 08:20 <@sandalle> I agree, I think they should be listed as well 08:20 <+ruskie> s/ne/be 08:21 <@sandalle> Well, that was quick. ;) Any nays? 08:21 <@sandalle> ruskie: Contact me via e-mail and we'll sort it out 08:22 <+ruskie> as soon as I get mozilla compiled... 08:22 <+rycee> You've got "General Gurus" under the grimoire team in the wiki. 08:22 * ruskie makes a mental note: don't use mozilla nighly... it's bad for your health... 08:22 <@sandalle> rycee: That's my next topic. ;) 08:23 <@sandalle> Without any nays, general gurus shall now be listed on the org. chart. 08:23 <@sandalle> Next topic (more a subtopic): Should each Team have a list of General Gurus, or should we just have one General Gurus listing? Should GG's be assigned to a Team at all? 08:24 <@sandalle> I say they shouldn't be assigned to a Team, as that would make them less "General" 08:24 <+knot_here> they should be on the grimoire team 08:24 <+rycee> You mean like general gurus doing sorcery development? 08:24 <+qnr> one gg listing, if they are going to work on sections at random 08:24 <@sandalle> However, the Grimoire Team is where they've alwasy been 08:24 <@sandalle> And I don't really want just anyone mucking with Sorcery. ;) 08:25 <+knot_here> each team should do their own thing 08:25 <@sandalle> rycee: Well, after saying what I did, I thought about that, hence my further postings. ;) 08:25 <@sandalle> So I'd like to rephrase that after thinking, GG's should only be Grimoire 08:25 <+ruskie> general gurus should be listed as soo(only moving to a team if/when they feel like it) 08:25 <@sandalle> The rest of the Teams don't have sections 08:25 <+rycee> i think the general gurus should be placed in a table next to the section gurus 08:25 <@sandalle> So the person would just be listed on that team 08:25 <+qnr> well, that can be limited of course, who can work where, but no sense repeating individuals in different areas 08:25 <@sandalle> rycee: Agreed. 08:26 <@sandalle> Any nays for General Gurus are only for Grimoire section? 08:26 <+lace> a general guru is more as a normal guru ? 08:26 <+alley_cat> general guru only makes real sense for the grimoire, as the other teams don't have sections like the grimoire 08:26 -!- low [low@d213-103-230-84.cust.tele2.fr] has quit ["back in about one hour and a half"] 08:27 <@sandalle> alley_cat: agreed 08:27 <+CuZnDragon> Are there any general gurus for like the docs? 08:27 <+CuZnDragon> web/tomb.. 08:27 <@sandalle> lace: A general guru is just one not assigned to a section 08:27 <+knot_here> why not have each team lead decide what they want? 08:27 <@sandalle> CuZnDragon: No, they'd be on the Tome Team 08:27 <@sandalle> knot_here: Leads can decide who they want on their team, and where they go within the team 08:28 -!- dkowis [~dkowis@cs24174190-60.satx.rr.com] has joined #smgl-admin 08:28 <@sandalle> 'lo dkowis. ;) 08:29 < dkowis> hi 08:29 < dkowis> sorry I'm hella late, I'm not smart enough to realize that when my alarm goes off, it was for a reason 08:29 <+qnr> heheh 08:29 <@sandalle> dkowis: np, I was an hour late myself. :( 08:29 < dkowis> ok, I thought my head was gonna roll... 08:29 <+knot_here> and sandalle is the new project lead 08:30 < dkowis> ok 08:30 <+knot_here> we were just getting going actually 08:30 < dkowis> congrats 08:30 <@sandalle> dkowis: Thanks. :) 08:30 < dkowis> knot_here: that's good I guess, I was mostly planning on listening anyway 08:30 <@sandalle> So, is it okay to have General Gurus only for the Grimoire, and the rest are assigned to the respective teams? 08:31 <+rycee> Yes. 08:31 <+alley_cat> yes 08:32 -!- basvg [~basvg@cc135993-a.deven1.ov.home.nl] has quit ["leaving"] 08:32 <@sandalle> Good, that's settled then. ;) 08:33 <@sandalle> Anything else I forgot? 08:34 <@sandalle> We have voting, Project Lead, Grimoire Lead, General Gurus decided 08:34 <+knot_here> team leads are invited to hold meetings for their team 08:34 <@sandalle> knot_here: Oh yeah! ;) 08:34 <+knot_here> and maybe we should have special lead only meetings (so not everyone has to go to all meetings) 08:34 <+ruskie> sandalle, you forgot to pickup the Staff of Power and the "Grand Poobah" pin still lying in your old spot... 08:34 <+qnr> my team lead went bye-bye <sniff> 08:35 * sandalle picks up the Staff and pin 08:35 <@sandalle> qnr: Who? 08:35 <+qnr> Oadae 08:35 <@sandalle> knot_here: When would they be? 08:35 <+knot_here> which ones? lead only meetings? you're the boss 08:35 <@sandalle> qnr: I thought you meant he left SMGL. ;) 08:35 <+qnr> I thought afrayedknot meant "right now" 08:35 <+qnr> heheh, I realised what it sounded like when you asked 08:35 < dkowis> I think lead only meetings should be determined by the leads, takes some management off of the PL 08:36 < dkowis> If they need to meet about something, it should be placed on them 08:36 <@sandalle> knot_here: I was thinking team meetings would be once a week, lead meetings every other month, and then a general meeting (like this) every other month (opposite lead meetings) 08:36 <+knot_here> i think the idea was to have more communication between leads about what their teams are doing 08:36 <@sandalle> dkowis: agreed 08:36 <@sandalle> knot_here: Agreed 08:36 <@sandalle> I'm not setting times for the meetings yet, nor even days, just getting the general idea right now. ;) 08:37 * Bernardo is back from changing diapers and receiving relatives 08:37 <+qnr> everyone that misses a meeting automatically gets !karma -1000 08:37 <+qnr> just kidding 08:37 <+ruskie> hmm 08:37 <@sandalle> Does that meeting layout sound good? Too many meetings? Leads not meeting often enough? 08:38 <+Worf> shall we discuss mailing lists vs. forums vs. newsgroups for a moment? 08:38 <+knot_here> bi-monthly maybe? 08:38 < dkowis> worf: forums are good 08:38 <@sandalle> knot_here: Which ones? ;) 08:38 <+knot_here> lead only 08:38 <@sandalle> Worf: After this we will. ;) 08:38 <+ruskie> Worf, some ppl hate one form or the other... 08:38 <@sandalle> knot_here: and then general every other month still? 08:38 <+knot_here> sure, or as needed 08:39 <@sandalle> ruskie, dkowis: He wants to consolidate them all, IIRC 08:39 <@sandalle> knot_here: k 08:39 <+ruskie> hmm newsgroups+mailing list+forum in a single pkg...? is that even remotely possible? 08:39 < dkowis> brb, going to switch IRC clients, trillian isn't so great..... 08:39 <@sandalle> So, Team meetings will be held once a week when that Team's Leader decides, Lead-only meetings (others can come) will be bi-monthly at a to-be-determined time/day, and general meetings are every other month (or when needed) 08:39 <+Bernardo> I'd rather have them more frequent, but I guess the weekly team meats might help 08:39 <+Bernardo> meats - meets 08:39 <@sandalle> Bernardo: that's the idea. :) 08:40 <+knot_here> anymore than once a week is too much i think 08:40 <@sandalle> knot_here: agreed 08:40 <@sandalle> knot_here: And once a week is pushing it for some... 08:40 <+alley_cat> yep, if the team meetings bring up some general issues the team lead can always call for a lead or full project meeting 08:40 <+knot_here> not to drag this out anymore, but i have one more concern 08:40 <+knot_here> (pre-emptive) 08:41 -!- dkowis [~dkowis@cs24174190-60.satx.rr.com] has left #smgl-admin [] 08:41 -!- dkowis_ [~dkowis@cs24174190-60.satx.rr.com] has joined #smgl-admin 08:41 <@sandalle> knot_here: Go ahead 08:41 -!- dkowis_ [~dkowis@cs24174190-60.satx.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 08:41 <@sandalle> Worf: Do you have an package in mind that can do all that? 08:41 <+knot_here> im not really into the porting thing too much, and in the past year not much has been happening 08:41 <+Worf> sandalle: not all... 08:42 <+Worf> i do know http://florian-amrhein.de/newsportal which is a web frontend for newsgroups, and i know that mailing list software is capable of interacting with a newsserver. But that i have not tried yet. Also i don't know about issues with abuse or so. 08:42 -!- Bernardo [~jbbrs@213.58.96.35] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:42 <+knot_here> we're too small to really do a whole lot other than mess around 08:42 <@sandalle> knot_here: We've been busy in other areas and it hasn't been a high priority 08:42 <+knot_here> right 08:42 <+qnr> do we even have a newsgroup? 08:42 <+knot_here> so im just wondering what we should do with that team 08:42 <@sandalle> qnr: Not at the moment 08:42 <+Worf> well - it was just a idea because i think that mailing lists, forums and newsgroups are serving quite the same purpose, but users prefer some of it over the other. 08:42 <@sandalle> qnr: At least nothing official 08:42 <+rycee> Worf: Mirroring the mailing lists on usenet wouldn't be very hard. Check out gmane. 08:43 <@sandalle> Worf: They do indeed. ;) 08:43 <+rycee> http://www.gmane.org/ 08:43 -!- Bernardo [~jbbrs@213.58.96.35] has joined #smgl-admin 08:43 -!- mode/#smgl-admin [+v Bernardo] by ChanServ 08:43 <+rycee> I use that for a number of lists. 08:43 <@sandalle> knot_here: Well...I have my SPARC port /almost/ working 08:43 <+knot_here> okay 08:43 <@sandalle> knot_here: Worf did his PPC port 08:43 * Bernardo hates it when kvirc just dies 08:43 <+knot_here> i just wanted to put it up for discussion 08:43 <@sandalle> knot_here: But GNU/HURD hasn't gone anywhere. ;) I'm waiting for them to finish porting to L4 08:43 <+Bernardo> I've been fighting with a arm/zaurus port 08:43 <+knot_here> ive not done a whole lot as far as lead 08:43 <+qnr> ok. well, I have to pay for my nntp ... don't like how articles expire though 08:44 <+knot_here> but i dont know what to do in particular or if it should be a defined team 08:44 <@sandalle> knot_here: Well, we created it to solidify what we're doing and let people know that there /are/ ports going on 08:44 -!- dkowis [~dkowis@cs24174190-60.satx.rr.com] has joined #smgl-admin 08:44 <@sandalle> knot_here: I think it should be a defined team, just so that people know we're working on ports 08:44 <+knot_here> okay 08:44 <@sandalle> knot_here: I don't mind if it's not too active right now 08:44 <+knot_here> i'll just keep doing what im doing then 08:44 <@sandalle> knot_here: We have other things on our plate than to worry about adding more architectures in a hurry. ;) 08:45 <+knot_here> should we have a qa team? 08:45 <@sandalle> knot_here: That would be good 08:45 <+knot_here> (ie me) 08:45 <+qnr> that sounds like a good idea 08:45 <@sandalle> Back in Sorcerer I formed the Grimoire Auditing Group (GAG) to do that. ;) 08:45 < dkowis> so are we going to build processes and things like that too? 08:45 <+Bernardo> I'd rather have easier ways to add other arches -like being able to specify which gcc and binutils to use 08:45 <@sandalle> We could re-form GAG. ;) 08:45 <+Bernardo> for cross-compiles 08:46 <+knot_here> well i want to add stuff to test sorcery as well 08:46 <@sandalle> Bernardo: gcc also needs to be modified to build for cross-compiles 08:46 <+Bernardo> you need a bootstrap binary gcc for that - at least for arm 08:46 <@sandalle> Worf: I think that's a good idea. If you can look at ways to get it all working I'd be happy to hear them and we can discuss it on the lists if you want. :) Might get more ideas/help there for this. 08:47 <@sandalle> So, we'll leave the Porting Team as is, since there /is/ work going on there, just not as fast as we'd like 08:47 <+Worf> sandalle: ok - if i find out something i'll write to the lists 08:47 <@sandalle> Worf: Thanks. ;) 08:48 <@sandalle> Worf will look (in his copious spare time ;)) for a way to integrate all of our information into a seamless platform. ;) 08:48 * sandalle shudders 08:48 <@sandalle> Sounded like MS there for a bit... 08:48 < dkowis> yeah 08:48 < dkowis> we'll call it .mage 08:48 <+ruskie> :)) 08:48 <@sandalle> hehe 08:48 <@sandalle> ;) 08:48 < dkowis> but, seriously, it is a good thing 08:49 <@sandalle> So all we have left is Sorcery Lead? 08:49 <+knot_here> do we add a spot for qa on the team org chart? 08:49 * sandalle is assuming Oadae-away will stay as Tome Lead 08:49 <+ruskie> qa? 08:49 <@sandalle> knot_here: Who would fill it? What will they do? 08:49 < dkowis> quality assurance 08:49 <+knot_here> quality assurance 08:49 <+qnr> quality assurance 08:49 <@sandalle> knot_here: And thanks for reminding me, I knew I was forgetting something. ;) 08:49 <+ruskie> :)) 08:49 <+qnr> what they said 08:49 <+knot_here> i would fill it 08:50 <+knot_here> and run/maintain prometheus 08:50 <+ruskie> prometheus? 08:50 <@sandalle> ahh, Prometheus 08:50 * sandalle loves Prometheus' work 08:50 < dkowis> I wouldn't mind helping out with that QA junk, because that's partially connected with the bashdoc stuff 08:50 <+knot_here> prometheus is my brain child 08:50 <@sandalle> He gave fire to SMGL 08:50 <+knot_here> email me afterwards and i'll get you up to speed then 08:50 <@sandalle> ;) 08:51 <+knot_here> :) 08:51 <+alley_cat> i have some ideas for prometheus usage in stable grimoire integration, but i'll have to think about it a bit more, will get in touch with you 08:51 <@sandalle> knot_here: Go ahead and add it to the org chart, then later today I'll start the pruning. ;) 08:51 <+knot_here> okay 08:51 <@sandalle> alley_cat: Ooh, that'd be nice 08:51 <@sandalle> alley_cat: automatic integration of spells based on if they work or not. ;) 08:51 <+knot_here> fire off a list email about team meetings and such 08:51 <@sandalle> No more mass updates from a slacking GL (moi) 08:52 <@sandalle> knot_here: I'm going to post a summary of the admin meeting to sm-admin and sm-discuss, which will include that. Should I make a separate post for it? 08:52 < dkowis> sandalle: prolly a load of your shoulders 08:52 <+knot_here> sure 08:52 <@sandalle> dkowis: ;) 08:52 <@sandalle> knot_here: Sure to which? 08:52 <+knot_here> separate post 08:52 <@sandalle> knot_here: k 08:53 * ruskie goes back to his grimoires... 08:53 <@sandalle> So, a new Q&A Team, led by knot_here for working on Prometheus. 08:53 <@sandalle> I have another topic I'd like to add (just thought of ;)) 08:53 <+ruskie> I think not Q&A just qa 08:53 <+knot_here> QA != Q&A 08:53 <@sandalle> knot_here: Heh, thanks. ;) 08:53 < dkowis> sandalle: yeah Q&A != QA 08:53 <+knot_here> or come up with a better name :) 08:53 <@sandalle> Fingers work faster than the brain 08:53 < dkowis> cant type fast enuf... 08:54 <@sandalle> knot_here: Bringers of Fire, Prometheus Team, ... 08:54 <+qnr> It's not going to be limited to just Prometheus, wonderful job that Prometheus does, hopefully 08:54 <+ruskie> knot_here, any explanation of prometheus anywhere? 08:55 <@sandalle> Any nominations for assistants to the following: Project Lead, Sorcery Lead, Tome Lead, Security Lead, Porting Lead? 08:55 < dkowis> that's what I was hoping, perhaps we could also invent/steal someone elses bash coding standards or something 08:55 <+knot_here> theres a wiki page for it 08:55 <+qnr> http://wiki.sourcemage.org/index.php?page=Prometheus 08:56 -!- mode/#smgl-admin [+v dkowis] by sandalle 08:56 -!- mode/#smgl-admin [+m] by sandalle 08:56 <+dkowis> sandalle: oooooh, voice 08:56 <@sandalle> And anyone think of a replacement for Sorcery Lead at the end of the month? 08:57 <+dkowis> you're not going to do both? 08:57 <+dkowis> ;) 08:57 <@sandalle> Heh, not me. :) 08:57 <@sandalle> I don't do bash 08:57 <+dkowis> me neither.... 08:57 <@sandalle> well, not much 08:58 <@sandalle> I guess we'll just shelve those, then. ;) 08:58 <@sandalle> Anything else we should talk about? 08:58 <+qnr> yeah, not ruskie, he'll try to switch us to ruby 08:58 * sandalle feels he's forgetting something 08:58 <@sandalle> qnr: heh. ;) 08:58 <+dkowis> sandalle: my bash expirence for foo in stuff; do chmod things; done 08:58 <@sandalle> dkowis: Ditto here 08:58 <+ruskie> qnr I won't 08:58 <+qnr> I know, I was filling space :) 08:59 <+knot_here> i wouldnt mind switching some of sorcery to ruby 08:59 <+knot_here> or tcl 08:59 <+qnr> bleagh 08:59 <@sandalle> knot_here: Do we want to discuss that here, or later? ;) 08:59 <+knot_here> later 08:59 <+dkowis> but then we'd have to add another interpreter to sorcerys basesystem 08:59 <@sandalle> knot_here: We went through this once, remember? ;( 08:59 <+knot_here> :( 08:59 <@sandalle> dkowis: Yep. :( 08:59 <+dkowis> oooh, bad blood there 08:59 <@sandalle> Yeah, that wasn't a fun discussion 08:59 <+dkowis> I can imagine 09:00 <@sandalle> knot_here: We can put that on the list, if you want, but it'll open another can of worms. ;) 09:00 <+alley_cat> i haven't seen a good reason to use anything else than bash yet 09:00 <+dkowis> I think, personally, that it would be good to keep most of sorcerys functions in bash 09:00 <+knot_here> bash lacks data structures 09:00 <+dkowis> keeps it all similar 09:01 <@sandalle> Heh 09:01 <+dkowis> true, then lets use c++ or java, but no one wants to do that because we want to keep it interpreited 09:01 * ruskie remembers a bash aware database system which could perhaps be used for gaze search? 09:01 <+qnr> not in sorcery at least.... though I personally have no problems with third party utilities that aren't "officially" part of the package 09:02 <@sandalle> If there's nothing else, we can close this meeting. ;) 09:02 <+dkowis> bash is a scripting language, we have sorcery scripts, scripts generally don't have advanced data structures, because they're for short quick jobs 09:02 <@sandalle> And again, sorry for being late. :( 09:02 <+dkowis> sandalle: i beat you by a couple hours 09:02 <+knot_here> sorcery is not a short quick job 09:03 <+dkowis> knot_here: very true, which is why I wouldn't mind if sorcery was in C++ or something 09:03 <+rycee> Actually, when you get into it Bash is perfectly fine. You just have to be careful about a few things. 09:03 <+dkowis> knot_here: then I might be able to help out on some things 09:03 <+knot_here> lets leave this for later i have other things to do 09:03 <@sandalle> knot_here: Agreed 09:03 <+qnr> so, now that that's over, is there an "assistant grimoire guru" position so a person can do stuff, but others know the top spot is available? 09:03 <+dkowis> sounds like a plan 09:03 <@sandalle> We can discuss this at another meeting if we really want to 09:03 <+rycee> The problem is just that Sorcery is badly designed, it has improved quite a bit though. 09:04 <+dkowis> perhaps I'll wake up for that meeting :) 09:04 <@sandalle> qnr: There's the General Guru....we already have an Assistant Grimoire Guru, rycee took that, and alley_cat is Grimoire Lead. ;) 09:04 <+qnr> no, I mean if I wanted to work in the doc section 09:05 <+dkowis> ooh, there hasn't been any activity in the doc section for a long time 09:05 <+qnr> but wanted the top spot to still be available 09:05 <+dkowis> I don't know who the leader is anymore 09:05 <@sandalle> qnr: You could take up the general guru and just work on doc. ;) 09:05 <+qnr> that's a point 09:06 <+qnr> actually, I have no problem with taking doc period, except we're likely to move in a couple of months and not have internet access 09:06 <@sandalle> qnr: For how long? 09:06 <@sandalle> If there's no more meeting notes, I'll close this. Last call? 09:06 <+qnr> depends, sometimes we live in our RV for a few months before settling down.. though we're considering getting sat access for the RV 09:07 <+dkowis> interesting 09:07 <+dkowis> just park near a WiFi hotspot and get a wireless card ;) 09:07 <+qnr> heheh yeah 09:07 <+ruskie> yeah prob solved 09:07 <@sandalle> qnr: Well, you could just be a general guru until you're settled in again, then take up doc 09:07 <+ruskie> there are a lot of unprotected wi-fis 09:07 <+qnr> ok 09:07 <@sandalle> Well then, I'll call this meeting to a close then. 09:07 <+dkowis> ok 09:08 <@sandalle> knot_here: If you could post the logs...? 09:08 <+knot_here> ive got a log 09:08 <+dkowis> I was going to ask about that... 09:08 <+dkowis> where do they get posted to? 09:08 <+rycee> dkowis: Check the wiki. There is a page for logs there. 09:08 <+dkowis> ok 09:08 <@sandalle> http://wiki.sourcemage.org/index.php?page=DeveloperMeetingLogs 09:09 <+ruskie> mental now mozill-nightly compiles faster than mozilla(also nightly has more chance of not acctually working)... --- Log closed Sun Mar 07 09:09:29 2004
Meeting_log_2004-03-07 (last edited 2008-09-22 23:34:49 by localhost)